> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://nerdontour.net/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # Leon Ahlers — Vienna VC Turned Tenerife Coliving Owner - URL: https://nerdontour.net/leon-ahlers-vienna-vc-turned-tenerife-coliving-owner/ - Published: 2026-11-03T15:42:17.000Z - Updated: 2026-11-03T15:42:17.000Z - Description: Leon Ahlers grew up between Vienna and Tenerife. Co-founded a startup, worked as a VC, imported Clase Azul, and now runs his family's property business. We talk Casona Charco, Marina Urbana, Spain's housing crisis, and slow travel. - Author: Piotrek Bodera - Tags: podcast, #project, #toc, Spain, Austria, Tenerife, Canary Islands ## Who is Leon Ahlers? Leon Ahlers is a Vienna-born entrepreneur and investor with a Canarian mother and an Austrian father. He grew up shuttling between Vienna and Tenerife, which he counts as two equal homes, and ended up at a Viennese high school where a leftover condition of the Soviet occupation meant he learned Russian before English. French he taught himself from Spanish, Italian from a little book in a Bologna cafe. He studied political science in Austria and Spain, then international relations at the Diplomatic Academy of Vienna and Johns Hopkins SAIS Europe in Bologna. Out of university he co-founded [Geolad](https://www.linkedin.com/company/geolad/home/?ref=nerdontour.net) with his older brother, a startup that tried to bring anonymized telecom data into mobile advertising before Silicon Valley took the whole pie. He then spent years as an investment manager at [aws Gründerfonds](https://www.linkedin.com/company/awsgruendungsfonds/home/?ref=nerdontour.net) with up to thirteen portfolio companies, and co-founded [Spirituosity](https://www.linkedin.com/company/spirituosity/home/?ref=nerdontour.net), the Austrian importer of Clase Azul tequila, which merged into a 170-year-old [family beverage distributor](https://www.linkedin.com/company/johann1857/home/?ref=nerdontour.net) earlier this year. Today, he runs his family's fourth-generation hospitality and real estate business in Tenerife. His great-grandfather arrived from Germany in 1898\. Sent to Vilaflor by a doctor, and built what became the largest company on the island. On his father's side, the family's Vienna shop was lost to the Nazis in 1938\. Leon turned the quiet legacy properties into Casona Charco in Puerto de la Cruz, the El Médano penthouse, and Marina Urbana, serviced apartments with coworking, gym and an ocean-view terrace on Plaza de España in Santa Cruz. I met Leon in a crypto project chat years ago. When I was ready to stay on the island longer, he had just finished renovating Casona Charco and let me fill it with friends. There were rooftop DJ nights and potlucks. Later, I helped build the Marina Urbana website. Listen to this full story on the Nerd on Tour Podcast. ## Timestamps 00:00 Start 01:03 Laid-back Austrians and Canarians 05:12 Growing up between Vienna and Tenerife 09:41 Two homes, two melting pots 13:49 Russian at ten, French on his own 20:17 Diplomacy school and thinking in odds 26:34 Philosophy to startup 31:39 geolad: telecom data vs. Silicon Valley 38:45 VC life: thirteen portfolio startups 42:39 Why a VC imports Clase Azul tequila 46:20 Four generations in Tenerife 50:03 Running the family business 55:15 Is Leon a digital nomad? 59:57 Casona Charco in Puerto de la Cruz 1:04:30 The El Medano penthouse 1:08:13 Marina Urbana on Plaza de España 1:15:40 Housing, licenses, Spanish election 1:20:05 Tenerife: slow travel vs. mass tourism 1:26:31 Garachico, Afur and Guamasa walks 1:29:09 Local art, HIIT, guitar, meditation 1:35:08 Where to find Leon, and outro ## Leon and his projects - [Marina Urbana](https://marinaurbana.com/?ref=nerdontour.net) — serviced apartments and coliving on Plaza de España in Santa Cruz, with coworking, gym and terrace - [Marina Urbana Coliving on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/marinaurbanacoliving/?ref=nerdontour.net) — where Leon shares updates and events - [Casona Charco on Booking.com](https://www.booking.com/hotel/es/casacharco-new-central-amp-spacious-in-historic-heart-of-puerto.html?ref=nerdontour.net) — the nineteenth-century townhouse on Plaza del Charco in Puerto de la Cruz where my friends and I lived - [Leon Ahlers on LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/leon-ahlers-7425a747/?ref=nerdontour.net) — the place to reach him about entrepreneurship and hospitality on the island - [Reinhard Sieder](https://www.reinhard-sieder.at/?ref=nerdontour.net) — Leon's stepfather, the painter whose work hangs in the apartments, with an exhibition in La Laguna in 2027 - [Spirituosity](https://spirituosity.at/?ref=nerdontour.net) — the boutique importer Leon co-founded to bring Clase Azul to Austria - [Clase Azul](https://claseazul.com/?ref=nerdontour.net) — the ultra-premium Mexican tequila and mezcal in hand-painted ceramic bottles - [geolad](https://www.linkedin.com/company/geolad?ref=nerdontour.net) — the Vienna startup Leon co-founded in 2011 to bring anonymized telecom data into mobile advertising - [aws Gründerfonds](https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/aws-grnderfonds?ref=nerdontour.net) — the Austrian venture fund where Leon worked as an investment manager ![St. Stephen's Cathedral rising above the rooftops of Vienna at golden hour](https://images.unsplash.com/photo-1516550893923-42d28e5677af?crop=entropy&cs=tinysrgb&fit=max&fm=jpg&ixid=M3wxMTc3M3wwfDF8c2VhcmNofDF8fHZpZW5uYXxlbnwwfHx8fDE3OTMzNDg3NDl8MA&ixlib=rb-4.1.0&q=80&w=2000) Glorious city of Vienna | Photo by [Jacek Dylag](https://unsplash.com/@dylu?utm%5Fsource=ghost&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=api-credit) / [Unsplash](https://unsplash.com/?utm%5Fsource=ghost&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=api-credit) ## Austria and Vienna - [Wiener Schmäh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener%5FSchm%C3%A4h?ref=nerdontour.net) — the Viennese humor Leon says makes Austrians the laid-back Germans - [Soviet War Memorial in Vienna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%5FWar%5FMemorial%5F%28Vienna%29?ref=nerdontour.net) — the Red Army monument on Schwarzenbergplatz I always notice - [Allied-occupied Austria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied%5FAustria?ref=nerdontour.net) — the four-power occupation that left Vienna with a Russian-language high school - [Diplomatic Academy of Vienna](https://www.da-vienna.ac.at/?ref=nerdontour.net) — where Leon started his international relations master's - [Johns Hopkins SAIS Europe](https://sais.jhu.edu/sais-europe?ref=nerdontour.net) — the Bologna campus where he finished it and picked up Italian - [Erasmus+](https://erasmus-plus.ec.europa.eu/?ref=nerdontour.net) — the exchange program Leon urges every student to experience ## Tenerife and the Canaries - [Vilaflor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilaflor,%5FSanta%5FCruz%5Fde%5FTenerife?ref=nerdontour.net) — the highest village in Tenerife, where Leon's great-grandfather was sent in 1898 - [Puerto de la Cruz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto%5Fde%5Fla%5FCruz?ref=nerdontour.net) — the northern town where Casona Charco stands - [La Orotava](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%5FOrotava?ref=nerdontour.net) — where I started my Tenerife life at Nine Coliving - [Santa Cruz de Tenerife](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa%5FCruz%5Fde%5FTenerife?ref=nerdontour.net) — the capital, home of Marina Urbana - [Plaza de España](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza%5Fde%5FEspa%C3%B1a%5F%28Santa%5FCruz%5Fde%5FTenerife%29?ref=nerdontour.net) — the harbor square where the family headquarters once stood - [El Médano](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El%5FM%C3%A9dano?ref=nerdontour.net) — the laid-back kitesurfing town with the island's largest natural beach - [Montaña Roja](https://www.theoceanpreneur.com/destinations/europe/spain/canary-islands/el-medano-tenerife-kitesurf-adventure-tips/?ref=nerdontour.net) — the red volcanic cone next to El Médano - [Garachico](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garachico?ref=nerdontour.net) — the beautiful little town on the forgotten northwestern coast - [San Cristóbal de La Laguna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San%5FCrist%C3%B3bal%5Fde%5FLa%5FLaguna?ref=nerdontour.net) — the UNESCO-protected old town - [Guamasa](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guamasa?ref=nerdontour.net) — Leon's hometown village between La Laguna and Tacoronte, with the walks he does every time he is back - [Afur to Taganana hike](https://www.webtenerife.co.uk/what-to-do/nature/hiking/trails/afur%5Ftaganana%5Fafur/?ref=nerdontour.net) — the circular PR-TF 8 trail in Anaga that Leon recommends - [Anaga Rural Park](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macizo%5Fde%5FAnaga?ref=nerdontour.net) — the laurel forest and cliffs where most of my own hikes happened - [Playa del Bollullo](https://www.laorotava.es/turismo/en/el-bollullo-beach/?ref=nerdontour.net) — the black sand beach under the cliffs near La Orotava - [La Caleta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%5FCaleta,%5FTenerife?ref=nerdontour.net) — the beach in the south Leon likes - [Nine Coliving](https://www.ninecoliving.com/?ref=nerdontour.net) — Anne's coliving in La Orotava where my island story began - [Anne Kuppens on Nerd on Tour](https://nerdontour.net/anne-kuppens-passionate-community-driven-founder-of-nine-coliving-in-tenerife/) — my conversation with the founder of Nine Coliving - [Ana Baute on Nerd on Tour](https://nerdontour.net/bencomo-coliving-owner-on-how-to-make-nomad-friends-conversation-with-ana-baute/) — another old Canarian house turned coliving, in Santa Úrsula [Anne Kuppens – passionate community-driven founder of Nine Coliving in TenerifeA healthy, thriving community is the most important quality for Anne Kuppens, the owner and founder of Nine Coliving in Tenerife. I had a privilege to experience it and befriend many nomads by staying for over a year at this magical place. In our conversation we talked about Anne’s![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/16/3e/163e6ae2-f4f9-4a47-9fd9-81c2af8159f2/content/images/icon/cropped-logo-blue-site-icon-130px-transparent-b1506c0d-1df3-43b6-879b-65811c8ff580.png)Piotrek BoderaPiotrek Bodera![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/16/3e/163e6ae2-f4f9-4a47-9fd9-81c2af8159f2/content/images/thumbnail/Anne-Kuppens-NOT-podcast-cover-d5dfcf19-829e-4aa1-a122-1f548155e483.jpg)](https://nerdontour.net/anne-kuppens-passionate-community-driven-founder-of-nine-coliving-in-tenerife/) ![a scenic view of the mountains and ocean](https://images.unsplash.com/photo-1691397553539-c7c573138747?crop=entropy&cs=tinysrgb&fit=max&fm=jpg&ixid=M3wxMTc3M3wwfDF8c2VhcmNofDF8fHRlbmVyaWZlfGVufDB8fHx8MTc5MzM0ODg2MXww&ixlib=rb-4.1.0&q=80&w=2000) Stunning views of Tenerife | Photo by [Hendrik Cornelissen](https://unsplash.com/@the%5Fbracketeer?utm%5Fsource=ghost&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=api-credit) / [Unsplash](https://unsplash.com/?utm%5Fsource=ghost&utm%5Fmedium=referral&utm%5Fcampaign=api-credit) ## Housing, politics and tourism in Spain - [2026 Spanish general election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026%5FSpanish%5Fgeneral%5Felection?ref=nerdontour.net) — the snap election on November 29 that Leon expects to be polarized on housing - [Spain's 2026 election, what foreigners need to know](https://www.idealista.com/en/news/legal-advice-in-spain/2026/10/21/919998-spain-s-2026-general-election-what-foreigners-need-to-know?ref=nerdontour.net) — idealista's explainer for residents who cannot vote - [Squatting in Spain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatting%5Fin%5FSpain?ref=nerdontour.net) — the illegal occupation problem Leon says deserves more attention - [Overtourism in the Canary Islands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary%5FIslands%5Fprotests?ref=nerdontour.net) — the local pushback against mass tourism we both see in the south - [Slow travel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow%5Ftravel?ref=nerdontour.net) — the alternative Leon and I keep coming back to ## Startups, VC and the rest - [Y Combinator](https://www.ycombinator.com/?ref=nerdontour.net) — the accelerator whose podcasts made me ask about Leon's portfolio names - [Red Hot Chili Peppers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red%5FHot%5FChili%5FPeppers?ref=nerdontour.net) — the band that got Leon to pick up the guitar - [Muay Thai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muay%5FThai?ref=nerdontour.net) — the Thai boxing Leon took up on his Southeast Asia trip and still does - [Bibione](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibione?ref=nerdontour.net) — the Adriatic apartments of my own childhood holidays - [Piotrek's Tenerife Google Maps list](https://maps.app.goo.gl/2n4J61aYUWTmwG5Q9?ref=nerdontour.net) — my saved restaurants, hikes and spots across the island ## Quotes > I know there are people that want to go to the same office and they thrive there. I somehow get bored. > They don't look like just yet another place for digital nomads or yet another Airbnb. > Housing affordability has become very tough for many people, especially young people. > There is no manual that tells you how to do it and there is really no authority that you can delegate it back up. ## Transcript of the conversation with Leon Ahlers #### Read the full transcript Leon Ahlers (00:00) I do think there are some great things about being a digital nomad in terms of the own experiences you can have, crossing so many borders, in mingling with people from different cultures, transcending national boundaries in your work and in your personal encounters. So this is something I view as positive and I think something that in another version of my life maybe I could have been that. Piotrek Bodera (00:28) All episodes of my Nerd on Tour Podcast are available for free. To listen to other inspiring nomad conversations, I encourage you to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts or your preferred app. For full show notes, links and transcripts, go to nerdontour.net. It's my specialized blog designed for digital nomads. Besides podcasts, I write about slow travel, useful tools, and fostering great relationships. And now Let's start the show. Leon Ahlers (01:00) Yeah. Piotrek Bodera (01:03) Hi Leon. Leon Ahlers (01:04) Hi Piotrek. Good to see ya. Piotrek Bodera (01:07) Likewise, I'm so happy that we can now connect, even though that we are quite far away from each other. You're currently in Vienna. Leon Ahlers (01:17) Yes, absolutely. In my home office in in Vienna. Piotrek Bodera (01:21) Okay, and I am in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia, but we did spend some time in Tenerife and actually in Vienna in Austria. And I want to start with this very unique combination that you represent. How different the Austrian culture is from the German culture? Leon Ahlers (01:43) It's great. I think most people internationally have a clear picture in their head what it means to be German, right? We have all these ideas in in our heads and you know, German is usually something that is perceived as reliable, maybe a bit direct, sometimes a bit harsh, yet friendly. And maybe not so many people, given that it's a small country, have such a clear picture about Austria. I think in a lot of ways it's culturally similar. We're next to our neighbors, we you know we work very closely with German industry and you know they're our biggest tourist group that come every every year to Vienna and to Austria more more broadly. So there's a lot of interconnectedness. But I do think by and large Austria is a bit more and that's what I hear from all my expat Fed friends. They're they're a bit more laid back Austrians, a little less stringent or or or direct in some ways. There's also this specific word that we use in Austria and that is Schnee. translates to something as like maybe humorous, we're quite humorous and funny. I also hear often that the language, even though it's also German, it's more mellow and rolls off better or more easily from the tongue. So I would say that culturally quite similar to many things that are we know from Germany, but maybe with a with a slight slightly more laid back vibe. Piotrek Bodera (03:05) Hm. Which is very aligned to what I experienced in the southern countries, so like Italy or Spain. And now I need to ask you how the Canarian culture is different from the Spanish culture. Leon Ahlers (03:22) Well, actually I would I'm thinking about this and arguably you can say what I said about Austria versus Germany to some extent about Canary Islands versus mainland Spain. Even though mainland Spain is huge in of itself and you know somebody from Andalusia will say they're very different from somebody from the north. But arguably also because it's an island and because there is so much Latin American immigration, actually historically there was a lot of immigration from the Canaries to Cuba, like a hundred thirty years ago. And to Venezuela and many of these people generations later come back. So it's like a melting pot for, you know, mainland Spanish people, indigenous originally indigenous population, and people from Latin America. So you feel that it's also very laid back. The language is kind of a mixture of mainland Spanish and many more Latin American accents. So yeah, island vibes, Latin American influence and happy, happy vibes. Piotrek Bodera (04:15) I would say. So you are a combination of a laid back German and a laid back Spanish. Leon Ahlers (04:23) You know, I never thought about it like that, but now that you say it I guess it's there is definitely some truth in that. Piotrek Bodera (04:30) Yeah, yeah. And you know, like I love it because I feel more comfortable in this part of the world where people are less stressed and less strict. And in comparison to what I experienced in Poland and growing up there and then being always, you know, trying to be always correct and never make mistakes and whatnot. It is now a relief to you know, be in the like the Canarian or Austrian vibes. and then in your case, you grew up in both places. Yeah. So how would you compare them? Leon Ahlers (05:12) I guess the in a lot of ways my my personal background is not that different from other, if you want to say migrant backgrounds, right? My mom's side, she grew up in Spain in on the Canaries and then came to Austria where she met my dad, where I started growing up. And then along well, as time went on, we just went back home, back to her home all the time. You know, we saw we had family, we had a business which we would get to, so we had many reasons to keep coming back. And it was a constant coming and going. So I think this is very similar to other people that might have, you know, some migration background or one parent, you know, being from another place than the one where they grew up in. So I would argue that it I was extremely privileged to have the access to both these cultures. Being able to access somewhat different cultures at an early age, I do think opens your eyes to differences among people, languages, cultures. I do think this is hugely beneficial when forming ideas about the world and, you know, being able also to adjust to a third, fourth, or fifth culture because you already know that there can be differences in how we relate to one another and what we the thoughts that we embrace and what we care about as human beings. So I'm very, very grateful for that possibility. Beyond that, a little bit about the things that we talked about earlier, right? being in each one of these cultures is already a privilege because Vienna is a Beautiful metropolis, which has amazing quality of life, culturally has so many offerings ranging from music, fine arts, and later as I grew up and as I was a student, vibrant nightlife. it's a wonderful location in Europe where you can go to other places in Central and Eastern Europe quite quickly. But also being in Tenerife regularly. spending time, you know, on the beach and the marvelous landscapes in the north of the island, the lush vegetation, beautiful h villages and and and and I mean all the things that we I know you're also on on the same team that we cherish fondly when we think of the canaries. Well being able to experience those early on, you know, the hikes that I to be f to be fair as a kid begrudgingly did with my with my mouth. But which later I came to appreciate. so I think each one of those was was a wonderful exposure and being able to combine that as an early age was was quite great. Piotrek Bodera (07:48) I have had Safety Wing since 2020\. It is the only insurance I've kept the whole time while on the road. Most travel insurance has one line in the fine foot. The trip ends after 30, 60, or 90 days away from your home country. Nomads do not have a trip. Traveling is our way of life. Many policies also require you to buy before you leave home. If you are already in Chiang Mai, You're out of luck. Safety Wing Nomad Insurance runs as a subscription. Start it from anywhere, even mid trip. Keep it for a week or four years. The essential plan covers medical treatment up to two hundred fifty thousand US dollars, but also evacuation, lost luggage, motor accidents and leisure spots. Every time I have written to them, They answered quickly and actually helped. The catch it is a travel medical insurance, not a full health plan. For that, consider upgrading to the higher plans. Go to nerdontour.net slash safety Wing and use the code Nerd on Tour for eight weeks of free electronic theft coverage on a new Nomad Essential plan. I pay for my own plan. The link supports the show. Would you like to regularly receive intriguing content like this? Then subscribe to Nomad Tuesday. Every week you will get an email from me with fresh podcast episodes, practical tools, and fascinating Nomad stories. Subscribe at nerdontour.net I'm glad to hear that you appreciate this unique opportunity to experience both of those locations. And would you say that both of them feel like home or one of them feel more like vacation and more like summer house? Leon Ahlers (10:00) I would definitely say that both of them are like home without any doubt. Certainly the you know, the net time spent and the majority of my school career was spent in Austria. So there is a case to be made that, you know, I was I'm maybe even more rooted in Vienna and I have more of my social and personal ties here, also more family ties. But in my heart and also the in my heart, Tenerife is a very close second and maybe even neck to neck. And also increasingly as I'm spending more and more time professionally now on the island, and and we just like me and my family, we we love Tenerife as a place to live and to spend time. So I would really say they're both equally home at this point. Mm-hmm. Piotrek Bodera (10:49) That's nice. And you mentioned that Tenerife is the melting pot, yeah, because of the history of people coming from Latin America, then like influencing the language and also for me, like when I came there, I was so thrilled to to experience those Europeans mostly, but from all of the countries from Europe coming there and just you know enjoying the life. yet in my notes when we were preparing for this conversation, I actually noted that Vienna is for me the melting pot, yeah, or like the definition of a multicultural city with deep roots, yeah, because the Austrian Empire in the past was basically a combination of many nations, yeah, including for some time Polish people. And we were coming there when I was working as a Tour guide from Katowice from my hometown. It's just four hours to drive and visit Vienna. So every time I came, I was very amazed by all the palaces and as you said, the cultural life with museums, with music, with concert halls, with opera, with just this vibrant feel. So how would you say the melting pot of Vienna and the melting pot of Tenerife influenced you? Leon Ahlers (12:15) Yeah. No, I mean I I couldn't agree more. And I do think Vienna specifically has such a tradition as this, you know, multi-ethnic, multicultural empire. It's the embodiment, if you want, of multiculturalism in its historical origins. And I do think that translates also forward to my own personal experience growing up, going to primary school here with, you know, kids were almost every other kid or most kids spoke at least one more language at home. This was also the time of the the different wars in the Balkans. So there was a lot of immigration from from those countries when I when I started going to primary school. So I doubt that had a deep influence on me and sparked a degree of curiosity also and and and also of taking it for granted that there are people from everywhere in our surroundings and you know, that everyone is a human being and everyone brings that their own experience to the table, which can be profoundly enriching in many ways. So I I would wholeheartedly subscribe to to that, to Vienna being that and and bringing that to somebody growing up there in the in the you know 1990s and early two thousands. Arguably you can make the same case about Tenerife where however tourism is just a a big part of the of the international mix, right? So you can't really argue the same case because you always have this tourism dimension or people that are coming for for a certain period of time and so on. But yeah, I do think it happens to be that I grew up in two places that unite people from many different parts of the world. And I think that's a a great thing. Piotrek Bodera (13:49) And I actually think this helped you to master many languages. I would say that you are one of those Europeans that fluently speak multiple of them because they just came from you know when you were born. Yeah, like as we established you have Spanish and Austrian roots, therefore German and Spanish your are your native languages, yeah. Then English is the lingua franca and also the language you used to study in the US. But then I'm curious at what point and how were you able to learn French, Italian and Russian? Leon Ahlers (14:34) Yeah. there's actually a funny story. I'm I'm gonna start with Russian because not many people know this. As you know, after the World War Two, Austria was occupied by the by well, by the Russians, the French, the British and the American. It was like, you know, Vienna specifically has had four component parts. And the Russians when they you know, when it was time for them to leave, they had a couple of conditions that they said, Okay, we're gonna leave you guys alone but one of the things, among many others, is that there should be one high school where Russian is taught as the primary language next to German, right? And for certain circumstances that are were more administrative, I somehow ended up at that high school. It was not my original intention. And and it was like a last minute wait wait list situation. And I was only 10 years old and they told me, Well you can go to this school, but you actually have to take Russian. before English. So I did not have English age ten to twelve or so. I actually had only Russian as the first foreign language. The first year was great. We had an amazing teacher, but then unfortunately we had I I think I can say this now, many, many years later we had a quite difficult teacher later on. and you know the teacher makes or breaks a class. So then, you know, I I I had Russian full time, many several times a a year for four years. But then on my own, because I Just didn't want to continue this. I learned French with an occasional help by a French teacher, and it came somewhat easily to me because it was so similar to Spanish, you know, the grammar and the and the words. So that I just caught up on two years of French and then changed from the Russian course to the French course. And then it was just four years of high school with French. I think I I enjoyed French. I thought it was a language that that It's beautiful and that you know made sense to me. actually later then I took up Russian again and I was a bit regretful that I didn't stay with it just during university. And French also, I think we'll talk about that in a little bit. I did a degree in international relations, kind of public diplomacy, if you want. So French is the lingua franca in diplomacy. So I really picked it back up again with some intensive classes during my masters. So that was kind of like the story of my Russian, my French, both of which are not as fluent as they used to be, especially my Russian, but I can probably make decent ordinary conversation. And my French also is just a bit a little bit rusty, but but it's okay. I can I can get by. And I think you mentioned Italian. Italian is actually because I studied at the Italian campus, a European campus of an American university for a year in Bologna. and I just thought it would be fun to learn the language 'cause you know, we hang out there, we order food, it's so similar to Spanish. And this one I really just learned with a little book. Occasionally I had my ritual, I went to the gym if I had some spare time on the way back. I had this, you know, cafe that had a wonderful sandwiches and whatnot, and I just sat down and learned learned Italian. But but it was just it's it's it is somewhat rudimentary, so I couldn't, you know, have a profound conversation in Italian. Piotrek Bodera (17:53) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean there is so much to unravel here because the Russian influence is still visible in Vienna. for example, you still have a huge monument for the Red Army, which as you said, was you know kind of a condition o for the Russian army to leave and therefore Austria had their independence. in Poland we were affected for a much longer time because we were part of the Soviet Union. Therefore, in the nineties, when I was growing up and until today, there is this huge push away from anything that is Russian. Yeah, there are no monuments, no you know historical sites, and of course nowadays yet again we have some conflicts between you know Europe and and Russia. So This language never kind of entered my vicinity or ability to to learn. But for example, for my parents it was mandatory. Yeah. So they they also had to learn it. Yeah. Leon Ahlers (19:02) Yeah, I think it's in in in Austria it's much rarer. But I was un among the lucky or unlucky ones, however you wanna view it. I w in retrospect defin definitely lucky. Piotrek Bodera (19:14) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That the you know the skill is always useful and you never know when you will end up in a situation where, for example, you would need to talk to a Russian customer, yeah, that that is visiting one of your properties. So and then on the other side, I'm so jealous that French, Italian, Spanish all have the same roots. Therefore it's so easy, as you said, to pick it up. Yeah, because once you know one, then it's easy to translate it to another of the same group of languages. And yeah, maybe in Polish and Russian or like Czech Slovak. We also have some you know similar roots, but I don't think we we have this you know opportunity or or like many situations that we would actually learn it. Yeah, like I don't know many Polish people learning Czech language because like why would you? Leon Ahlers (20:09) Also everyone speaks fantastic English and especially among the younger people in most of those countries, right? So it's an easy way out. Piotrek Bodera (20:17) Exactly, exactly. Okay, but moving forward to the university, you mentioned already that most of your school years were in Vienna and then you decided to do the international relations and economics. So why did you pick this topic? Leon Ahlers (20:36) I was always always since say middle or high school, I was all always drawn to politics, political, you know, philosophy, thinking about how we as human beings organize our relationships with one another, how societies relate to one another and how the dynamics of societies work internally. So I was always curious about if you want political philosophy as a central point of of things that were interesting to me. And actually I studied political science in my bachelor's in Austria and in Spain. And for me, it was kind of a natural extension to continue with international relations. It was actually a wonderful degree where I could start in at the Diplomatic Academy of Vienna and then move on to SIS, which is Johns Hopkins for Amer an American University for the Master's program. So what was so attractive to me is that it the the degree is composed of five different parts, right? You have a lot of history, you have political science, you have law, you have economics. Yeah. All of those four aspects are important if you wanna somehow work or understand international relations. And then you have the fifth component, which is languages. So it was just a very multifaceted environment. And I was I think always a person that was eager to go to dip into very many things a little bit rather to to go rather than going all in into one very specific subfield. And so that was just one of the best times of my life because I enjoyed being able to learn about so many things from so many different angles. Yeah, it was it was amazing to be to be brutally honest. Yeah. Piotrek Bodera (22:25) And by the opportunity to study in different countries, I feel like you even more opened your horizons, yeah, because it's different just studying in another language, like in in your case you started in Vienna, then you you studied in Spain. so you could actually just observe how the lectures are conducted, yeah, and how the universities organized and how the the life on the campus is also different, yeah. And then I am actually interested how would you compare Vienna, Spain and then US in terms of, you know, education, higher education. Leon Ahlers (23:06) Yeah. I wholeheartedly agree with what you said that, you know, being in these different environments, not only using different languages to learn about complicated subjects, but also understanding how the student body, what what they think about, how they're com what they're composed of, what kind of people and backgrounds, how they relate to one another, how the syllabus looks really like th those are gives you that gives you some very interesting clues about the country as a whole. And then obviously you learn about in Spain I learned about Spanish history, something I would never have learned about had I just stayed on in in in in Vienna. So I guess this is a quick aside that anyone that can do Erasmus or something like that, I would hugely encourage it because I think it can be just a tremendously enriching opportunity. Piotrek Bodera (23:57) I have been using WISE since twenty sixteen, back when it was still called TransferWise. Today it is the main business account of my British company, Nerd on Tour Ltd. The problem it solves. A regular bank charges 1 to 3% on every purchase abroad and hides more in the exchange rate. Spend $3,000 that way and you lose about ninety dollars without noticing. WISE shows me the real value. rate and a fee before I confirm. I hold Euros, pounds, dollars and local currencies in one place. The card sits in Apple Pay, and WISE ships a physical card to wherever I am. In Asia I pay with local QR codes. Idle balances earn variable three and a half percent a year. The catch one day WISE will ask for proof of address. Keep a recent coworking statement ready, And keep a backup account. Mine is Revolut. Try at nerdontour.net slash wise. I pay for WISE myself. The link supports the podcast. Revolut has been my main personal account since 2018\. I have used it across Europe, Asia, Australia and the USA. The app works the same everywhere. The problem A card from home bank was never designed to work in multiple countries. The fraud detection freezes it at the worst moment, usually at an airport. The exchange rate is a mystery until the statement arrives, and the cash in the account earns nothing. With Revolut, I confirm payments with face ID and freeze or unfreeze the card myself. On a paid plan, I exchange currencies without fees, the lowest rate I have found anywhere. Spare money sits in a cash fund at variable 3.5% a year. The plan includes a global easing data for the day I land somewhere new, plus NordVPN, which I would pay for anyway. The catch Don't rely exclusively on Revolut while nomading. Keep a second account. Mine is wise. Try personal account at nerdontour.net slash revolut and business account at nerdontour.net slash business. I pay for my own plan. The link helps my podcast. Leon Ahlers (26:34) In regard to your question about the US versus Europe more broadly, I did not study in the US. I did study at an American university, but most of the or many of the teachers were American. the majority of the students were American. And the way the program was structured and syllabi were structured was very American. And that was actually quite interesting and influential for me because I felt like European syllabi, especially the diplomatic academy, they were so floral. I mean this very positively, right? You could really you could dip into all these different things and learn about them and write long essays. But I do think that the American approach to certain problems was very complementary for me to see how Americans, this is obviously talking in in in you know, very broad categories. I don't want to say that all Americans think like that. But I do think conceptually, academia in America and people that think about certain problems, there is a tendency to to view things differently. I think in Europe we take time, we relax, we look at the problem from many different angles. And America is much more spot on. and I learn to think much more in probabilities. And I'll explain what that means. When you look at a problem, what are the probable outcomes one way or another? What is a risk, what is maybe a risk that you didn't factor into the equation and and an unintended risk. So that was a huge you know it's it's such an abstract term, but it was like it opened a whole new world to me to think about problems and and try to solve problems also with this toolkit that was maybe somewhat more quantitative, statistic, probabilistic, and taking risk into the equation. that was very interesting to me. Yeah. And I think being able to choose from a more European If you want European toolkit or a more American pragmatic, if you want toolkit is greater. Piotrek Bodera (28:35) This also translates to your many business endeavors and I think the American culture encourages, yeah, to to be brave, to to risk, but then to reap the rewards. Let's then focus on the the business side because it was the can we say like it was a second topic that you were studying and you know diving into? Yeah. Leon Ahlers (29:05) Yeah, definitely. I do think not so much on the academic level, but al alongside my degrees and my university career, I was already in touch with business and different business projects from like my early twenties onwards. So this was definitely also something that was kind of always around that I also found interesting and that I tried to somehow relate to my academic background or, you know, have it coexist with my academic background. Piotrek Bodera (29:30) Okay, and because you were fascinated by the politics and political science, did you actually consider working in the government or with some organizations that are much more focused on those matters than you know just going into the business? Yeah. Leon Ahlers (29:50) Definitely. I do think there was maybe a time frame right after graduation or even before where where I was profoundly interested in maybe staying in academia or working in some kind of a multinational organization, NGO or or the likes. it for you know, things happen and for certain reasons I then very quickly after my master's degree ended up working at a startup, which was also very appealing at the time. And the last twelve to fifteen years or so have been dominated by by a strong focus on business activities of different kinds. But it is true that I'm currently trying to reconnect s more strongly to what I studied and I'm actually exploring different research options. I can't say too much about yet, but I think we'll be back on the table much more profoundly in the next two to three years. And I'm very much looking forward to that. Piotrek Bodera (30:50) Okay, so we are not announcing that you are running for president in Austria. Leon Ahlers (30:55) No, no, no, no, no. It's I I I it's just because the ideas are still somewhat vague and I'm trying to speak make full full sense of it. But I'm but I'm trying to to commit more strongly to you know more more about academia and and reconnecting with problems of political philosophy or issues of political philosophy that I I just find very interesting. Yeah. Piotrek Bodera (31:15) Sure, sure. Yeah, of course. Like I was just joking that when Leon Ahlers (31:19) No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. Piotrek Bodera (31:21) people, you know, do the podcasts with some famous person is like, yeah, today I will tell you that I want to be a So let's start then with the startup that you worked with. Was it the mobile advertising or something else? Leon Ahlers (31:39) Right, right, right. Yeah. I I actually co founded the startup with my older brother in my in my early twenties. It started off as a side gig. Then kind of when I finished my master's, it became serious. We had some funding coming in and we had our first, you know, major contracts with enterprises. And I was like, Okay, this is really exciting. Let's, you know, go all in here. And yeah. And then literally when I finished my master's degree in twenty fifteen, I I went, if you want, full on back into the startup. And it was a a great experience in many ways, even though actually the startup did not end up surviving in the long term. The experiences that I drew from there were so forming and so helpful for what came later that I can't be I can't express more gratitude to that time. You know, it was a very challenging time in many ways. I was constantly outside of my comfort zone. you know, but you know, people grow that way and I was young to be able to expose to very different things and and and you know, it's kinda like what what we talked about early in university. You you tackle all these different problems. When you're a startup co founder, you also have like all these problems on your table and you just need to somehow solve them and there is no manual and that tells you how to do it and there is really no authority that you can delegate it back up. So you just need to go and do it. And that's tough, but it makes you it makes you, I guess, more gain more confidence in getting certain things done. And that was great. Yep. Sorry, that was very abstract. I I guess I never explained what we actually did. So we were a a company that helped telecom operators get their data in an anonymized form into the mobile advertising ecosystem. This was a time when, you know, Facebook and all the big ones were kind of getting all the pieces of the pie in in advertising revenue and everyone was very worried and we said, okay, maybe there is a way to have several national telecom operator based anonymization solutions that may that help operators get a piece of the cake while preserving the privacy of the data that of their of their consumers. Yeah, that was in broader terms what we were trying to Piotrek Bodera (33:58) Okay, okay. And from like technical side, I try to imagine because that's like twenty fifteen that you said, we already have smartphones. so the mobile internet is is already like becoming a thing for for many many people. And then are we talking about like summarizing the data about you know usage of like how many me people are using smartphones in particular cities or more deeper data like in terms of Facebook that you can see exactly who is liking what kind of profile and and page. Leon Ahlers (34:38) It depended. So we were working on solutions with each specific telecom operator according to the national legislation, what was possible and what was also what the telecom operator feel comfortable with data wise. But we also did look at contract data, like you know, things that you can actually verify based on the contract that the telecom operator has with their consumers, which is something that many of the social media platforms did not have. And the question was how can you reliably anonymize the data such that, you know, you can never identify an individual and yet get more relevant advertisements to the people based on their, for example, demographic characteristics. Alongside that, we also looked at behavioral data like the things that you just explained. But one of the main distinctive features was was being able to somehow get these data points into the into the advertising equation in a compliant way. Piotrek Bodera (35:35) Okay. And then you said that the the startup didn't survive, but was it like a mutual decision to like sell it off or did you have like another opportunity and and you moved into investing? Leon Ahlers (35:51) I I actually personally at some point in the early late twenty nineteens, early twenty twenty, I decided to take a step away from from the startup because of several things that had to do with the board of directors and and and other things and moved more into into investing in venture capital, which was kind of my personal professional next chapter. The startup in of itself, to be brutally honest, in retrospect, I would say suffered. pretty much the same fate that its competitors suffered from. Like almost every there were like four or five global competitors that were trying to do sim similar things with working with telecom operators. And the sub industry wasn't able to deliver on its promise. There were just too many problems with the business case, with maybe also the pace of you know, these behemoths that are just slow moving. But I think it was an exciting learning experience also even for s many of the new business departments in in these places. So I would arguably say that it was a a great learning process for everyone, the whole the whole industry of this, you know, telecom powered data monetization solutions. But to my knowledge, to the present day, they they just haven't worked out the way the industry thought they were going to. Piotrek Bodera (37:09) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it baffles me as well. But I kind of understand, you know, because the the telecom companies in most places around the world are either national companies or like semi-national, and then maybe there are some like private enterprises, but all of them are impossibly huge. And a lot of them are have history back when the telephones meant like cables, yeah, the wired landline telephones and therefore the legacy of like all of the bureaucracy and how they were doing stuff is completely incompatible with like the digital revolution of internet and having things right now. Leon Ahlers (37:55) Yeah. Yeah, there is definitely a cultural mismatch. There is also responsibility. I mean, I I I think you can single handedly blame them because, you know, these are powering the internet and and telephone for populations and they need to comply with regulations that other players in the valley maybe don't, right? So it's just a cultural problem that I saw, the same way as you're describing it right now. But yeah. We were just at the time hopeful that you know, we could make a solution where some of the revenue new new business generation could actually stay in the hands of of national solutions where where there is a bigger control also of the revenue streams and the data. But but so far it's been really most of that revenue has been captured by by Silicon Valley companies. Piotrek Bodera (38:45) Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about the investing because I'm curious how do you become an investor? Is that like you had some savings, some earnings from the position at the startup that you decided, okay, it's now my time to kind of invest into other startups and help them to build up cool stuff, or maybe did you have some outside investors and you were like just leading them to help, you know, other companies? Leon Ahlers (39:15) Actually neither at the time. I was just extremely eager to work at a professional investment firm that works with startups. so I did not use my own money or or you know, people my immediate acquaintances' money. Instead I was convinced that the experience that I had gained as a startup founder was invaluable when, you know, talking to other startups, scouting startups that might be interesting, promising. empathizing with startup founders. I thought that was just something that many people that came from other backgrounds did not bring to the table in the same way. And I I thought for me it just sounded like the dream job. You could, you know, manage a degree of capital on behalf of a big fund and just look at technology sectors that you're curious about, interview startup founders, go to all these conferences, networks, see what you're generally curious about, see formulate hypotheses of where you think technology and the markets are going. And in the best case, make the case and doing, you know, two or three investments a year into exciting startups. Obviously, you know, it's in in such a structure you have, you know, your boss and your boss's boss that you need to convince and the investment community. So you really have to find a cool startup, make the case internally, then actually be the investor, the startup. especially when the deal is very competitive that the startup wants as an investor. And then it's not just the investment part, but then you actually ideally you also want to help the startup throughout its strategic challenges, operational issues, hiring, growth strategies, potentially help them secure follow on financing with, you know, bigger investors or help them sell the startup when the time has come. So I thought the just the degree of variability of being exposed to many different sectors, many different startups, being responsible for at I think at the peak I had twelve or thirteen portfolio companies that that I was responsible for. I thought that was just tremendously enriching to be able to have this exposure and try to help these these extremely ambitious young companies get to the next step. Piotrek Bodera (41:28) Often when I'm listening to podcasts about the startup world and especially the Silicon Valley, Y Combinator is one of the most popular ones and they love to, you know, shout the names of companies that they started or helped like Airbnb or Stripe. Are there some brands or companies that are recognizable that you help to, you know, build? Leon Ahlers (41:56) Yes, there are some of the bigger names in the Austrian ecosystem that have, you know, secured eight, nine digit funding at this point. I don't I don't wanna share too much about this now in this format, but there are definitely some of the you know, if you look at the top ten most exciting startups in Austria, there are one or two where I was at some point either involved in the investment structure or on the board and yeah, I'm happy that I was lucky and privileged to to be there, to get that exposure, hopefully to also help a little bit along the way. yeah. And I continue to follow them quite closely and wish them all the best. Piotrek Bodera (42:39) Okay, so then how was the transition from working for this investment company to now becoming the the managing partner in like alcohol exclusive brand from from Mexico? and then to tie it up, are you still having ties with those startups? Like are you still invested and kind of waiting for some returns? Yeah. Leon Ahlers (43:05) I independently of my time at the venture capital fund, I do have some personal commitments financially and otherwise in two or three in startups. And yeah, I I continue to advise a little bit in some, in others I'm just a you know, small shareholder. Yeah, so I do I do have that. But that to be honest is separate from my activity in the VC. I I I was an advisor also for some of the startups later on, especially when it came to helping secure follow on fundraising. So yeah, that that helped me stay in touch with them. that's on your second question. On your first question, that's actually also a funny funny story, right? Like it it sounds like such a weird turn of events. How do you go from like a mobile advertising startup to VC and then to an alcohol distribution business? Anyway, sounds crazy. There is a logical explanation to it. It's actually that one of our investors at the first startup startup that I co-founded out of university. He, you know, he was a real estate guy and he was always in Ibiza and Mykonos. And he was aware of this amazing brand from Mexico that had absolutely stunning tequilas and mezcals, also in beautiful ceramic bottles. And both the quality of the content and the the design and the artistry and the artisanry of the bottles just spoke to us tremendously. And at some point he contacted me and we were just discussing that there was no distributor in Austria yet. And we were so passionate about the brand as, you know, consumers that at some point we said, Well, why don't we help them bring the the the product to Austria? And we really just out of the blue a little bit built a distribution company, a little bit like a startup, very boutique, very small, and ended up distributing This this brand is called Clase Azul, Clase Azul Mexico in Austria, which is an reasonably important market in the luxury travel industry. so this is an ultra premium and luxury prestige product. So yeah, it was just a natural fit or a natural priority to have this market properly served. And we did this for a couple of years, built a small portfolio of of other brands. around this that we also felt eager to import. And actually earlier this year we merged with a large beverage distribution company from Austria, family business for hundred and seventy years or so. And we're all super excited that this merger came to fruition. I think Clase Azul is happy about this bigger, more forceful structure that can really make sure all the business goals are achieved properly. We're happy that it's in really good hands. And I stay on as an advisor to that company. Yeah. But I am not operationally involved as much anymore for for a couple of months now. Piotrek Bodera (46:07) Okay, okay. Yeah, once you tell the story then it makes sense, the transitions from one. Leon Ahlers (46:14) I can see how I can see how it looks crazy when you just look at it like why would any I I get that. Piotrek Bodera (46:20) And it feels like on the side you have been involved with your family company, yeah, we're like managing the properties in in Austria in the Nav. So could you tell me about the family business, like how old it is and and what exactly you and others are doing? Leon Ahlers (46:41) course I'll focus on the the Spanish side because that's the important one I guess in in terms of the property management business. Even though I do want to say that on my dad's side, on my Austrian side, we had a very prosperous business up until nineteen thirty eight. we had a very well recognized first shop in the city of Vienna. unfortunately the Nazis came and my family was Jewish and so we had to emigrate and we lost the we lost the business. So this just as a as a as a small That there is also some entrepreneurial experience and background on on this site that I hold quite fondly in my heart. In rel in response to your question about the property business in Spain, we had a very old family business, I guess, for our standards. My great grandfather came actually from Germany in eighteen ninety eight to Tenerife. He was quite young, he had some pulmonar disease, and his doctor told him to go to Tenerife to be La Vilaflor Which I'm sure you're aware, it's a just a tiny village by the mountain, or I think it's the highest village in Spain, if I'm not mistaken, in terms of highly highest above the sea level. Anyway, he he got there, he was quite young and he immediately fell in love with the island and started co founding a number of businesses across agriculture, banking, distribution, commercial enterprises, and it it became a a conglomerate. Which then my grandfather in second generation took over, grew significantly until at some point it actually was the the largest company by revenue in in Tenerife, I second largest in in in the Canaries. With a strong focus on automotive distribution and also shipping. But it was wound down in the nineteen nineties, when the you know, the operational business was mostly sold to the to the previous junior partner in the company and as it happened with with many previous family businesses. It then became mostly a a real estate legacy business. Where on our side of the family, well we we we had a couple of properties, yeah, that were just, you know, not very actively managed. And I thought there there was just an opportunity to build something new, ex something exciting, something that creates value for us. But also for the people that enjoy the things that I'm or we are trying to create. And yeah, to be honest, increasingly I've been taking this on. I've introduced a level of risk relating a little bit to what we talked about earlier. You know, getting some big bank loans, which is also, you know, culturally always introducing that to a more conservative family business was also a degree of a challenge. But I do think now we're well on the way to having an interesting small boutique. hospitality slash real estate business with a couple of interesting approaches. And I've yeah, you know, throughout my whole trajectory between startups we see, I do think I've picked up interesting things along the way. And a couple of years ago I thought that this is just something that I feel quite passionately about and I really want to go full time with this and really devote my time to creating something that's meant to last. And yeah, this is where we are now. Piotrek Bodera (50:03) Excellent. So it kind of naturally rolled over, yeah, from the generations in the past where you already had the example of your great grandfather, then your grandfather, your parents. And I wonder because you know, usually in the movies they are portraying it like, you know, like the the whole family, everyone has like a specific niche that they are, you know, doing, like your cousin would be doing the marketing, someone else is like greeting the guests coming to the hotel. Can you tell how it is organized? You know, how are the dynamics with your family and you know taking care of this family business? Leon Ahlers (50:45) Yeah. to be honest, on our side of the family, I am definitely I guess the person with the strongest entrepreneurial drive. We take important decisions as a as a family together. But operationally, I am lucky that there is a lot of trust towards me and that I propose things that I do think make sense. And so so most of the strategic and also operational things are are carried out by me. My brother and my my mother just involved themselves in in, you know, more like board level decisions that need to be made as they have their own careers. my mom's a psychotherapist and my brother is becoming a psychotherapist. So there is another family of tradition there that is also very appealing. Yeah. Piotrek Bodera (51:31) Okay, okay. So you are the main person in charge of running and operations of the properties. Leon Ahlers (51:38) At this point, yes, from the from the family. Of course we have a small team of of people that help with operational issues but and and you know, bringing the business forward. But yeah, that in terms of the family, I'm the only person involved in its daily operations at Piotrek Bodera (51:53) And how was it balanced with your career? Yeah, because we were just talking about those different transitions that you started really early, right after your graduation. And then were you doing the the family business always on the side, or at some point you just decided, okay, let's push everything else and focus on this? Leon Ahlers (52:14) I was starting to get involved more. So my my mom as this, you know, third generation was still involved more at an earlier stage. Also as a psych project, if you want, since her vocation was being a psychotherapist. But I would say gradually as I gained more experience in other business fields, I gained a conviction that this is something that I wanted to do and I gained also experience to actually carry it out. So I would say it was a gradual process over the last ten to fifteen years worth of We've been accompanying the business in its strategic decisions and a couple of years ago I've I've really solidified the thought that this is a a full time project, at least for the time being. And yeah. Piotrek Bodera (52:57) Okay, okay. It's good to to see that there is agreement and there is a trust. because I'm also involved with our family business. For many, many years my dad is running a BMW repair shop and I am like all the digital things, yes, a website and our communication system with our clients and bookings and everything. So it's much more a smaller company, but yet it's nice that I can do that regardless where I am physically, yeah, because I you know traveled the the world and lived in in many countries and digital nomading is still my my main thing. yet I I'm able to to like part-time help my help my dad and and have our small family business. And I'm curious how did you organize your work? Because Yeah, it feels to me or when I was checking your LinkedIn profile, it felt like you already were doing some remote work. Yeah, like you were studying in the US or in Spain, yet you were, you know, managing different things kind of further away. Would you say that, you know, working on your laptop has been kind of like your norm from the beginning? Leon Ahlers (54:14) Arguably, yes. Yes. I would say so. I mean I I always had some operational tasks or businesses that were taking place on some other part of the world that I needed to somehow manage remotely, right? Had to take care of them things in Spain, but I was currently in Austria. I needed to do that and you know, the other way around, for example, with my beverage distribution business or whatever. So so I think the location of where I'm working from is just a vehicle or a s you know, or a stepping stone to whatever purpose I'm trying to achieve. So I actually do think I I do like the variability in the work environment. I know there are people that want to go to the same office and they they love that it they thrive there. I somehow get bored. So I you know, sometimes I work from home, then I go to a cafe, then I go to a co working space. I I do like the flow and the constant stimulus of new environment. Just brings new ideas and it's quite I don't know. I enjoyed that. Piotrek Bodera (55:15) So would you consider yourself the digital nomad then? Leon Ahlers (55:21) I I I I don't think it would be fair to to do that because I'm still quite rooted in in the two places. Yeah. I do think the term digital nomad maybe became quite, you know, broadly known when I was already tied to Spain and Austria, both in terms of family and and and and professionally. But I do think I I had that not been the case, I would have very likely been one because I do think there are some great things about being a digital nomad. In terms of the own experiences you can have, crossing so many borders, in mingling with different cultures, people from different cultures, transcending, you know, national boundaries in your work and in your personal encounters. So this is something I view as positive and I think something that in another version of my life, maybe I could have been that or I would have loved doing that for for a longer time. Let me let's put it this way. Piotrek Bodera (56:16) Of course. And to be fair, the term is very loosely defined and I like that that everyone can have their own spin of what it means. And personally I view it more like camping. Yeah, it's like a activity, you do it. If you want to do it just, you know, one week in a year, you can. Yeah, there is no kind of brain that being a digital nomad means that you are full time, you're always somewhere, and you have to do this, this, this, and that. Yeah. So I kind of learning about your story found that you have already implemented so many of those important elements. Yeah, like moving around, working remotely, being decentralized, having multiple bases. All of this is already, you know, something you you you do. And before we we move to the part where you we talk actually and show some of the accommodation that you offer into naive. What was traveling for you? Like how did you start traveling? What was the the the first trip that, you know, gave you the travel bug? Leon Ahlers (57:21) Yeah, cool. So I talked a bit about the privilege of, you know, being raised between two places. That is a huge privilege, but it came at a cost, which was that we just didn't travel that much to other places. Whenever there was a holiday, we went, you know, to Tenerife and pretty much with some occasions. So I didn't really start traveling a lot until I was significantly older. But I do one trip is very memorable to me, which was kind of when I was pivoting out from my startup in late twenty nineteen, if I remember correctly. I we had actually some business in Southeast Asia. So I did a if you want a farewell trip where I had a bunch of business meeting meetings. The company still paid for my flight there, so I was happy. I did all that. And then I was like, okay, now I'm I'm just gonna roam around like a bird in Southeast Asia. And it was actually a a tremendously important experience. I you know, I went to many places that you're very familiar with like you know, Thailand, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, one or two other places. and even though it was only for two months, it was just such a great experience. I I I remember I also set some goals. I was actually to be fair, I was then actually traveling and not working. So I don't know if Piotrek Bodera (58:38) Fun. Leon Ahlers (58:39) if the term digital nomad you tell me if that applies here or not. But I was actually wholeheartedly okay then. And it was great. I took up Thai boxing, which I, you know, kept doing to a greater or lesser extent to the present day. I started meditating. I changed things in some some of my habits, some of my dietary approaches. It was a lot of very positive change and also cultural experiences that I remember until today that were very very important for me. Piotrek Bodera (59:16) Mm-mm. Thank you for sharing this and it's interesting that you frame it that because having those two bases in in Tenerife and in Vienna, your family didn't even thought about yeah going to other places, yeah, because you you you're already kind of combining the traveling, moving around. Leon Ahlers (59:38) I wanna I wanna relativise that obviously we were still privileged enough that here and there we could do a trip elsewhere, right? But as a kid with a school schedule and very specific times when you could go on vacation in ninety percent of those opportunities we'd we'd just go to Tenerife because, you know, all of the reasons were yeah. Piotrek Bodera (59:57) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wanted to to just touch on it because me and many other people who stayed in your places, in your apartments in Tenerife, really appreciate having a proper base. The digital nomads that are coming to Tenerife and other Canarian islands, they seek places that are authentic, that it's not only a place to stay, but it's also a community or an occasion to to build a community. We actually met on a on a chat with like some crypto project that we were both you know involved and over the years it it's evolved into actually you know building stuff together. So let's start with Casona Charco. How this project started and where it is right now. Leon Ahlers (1:00:52) So i it initially really started with an investment decision in the family business. we we thought it was time to to go into the market and buy something that we thought was complementary for our business strategy. So we're looking at a couple of options. But when we saw this beautiful building in the center of Puerto de la Cruz in the north of Spain, I immediately felt that this is it. it was just a a a stunning building from the nineteenth century, preserving its traditional architectural elements, actually pretty well maintained. And the interior distribution lent itself perfectly to to having spacious, nice apartments with the commodities that it would have. Yeah, I think you do have a picture here. I yeah, you see it. I mean the the wooden the wooden frames, the color of the facade, the traditional structure of the of the roof, it just immediately spoke to me. And it was actually largely renovated. It has a quite a good traditional restaurant at the at the bottom. I just thought it was an amazing a point of departure. And then we thought about the the usage that we could give to it because it had been empty for a long time in terms of the apartment. So we did some adjustments to make them really nice and cozy and have all the amenities that, you know, would be required. Do decoration that you know speaks to national and international guests alike. And and then we launched this project as a for a for a long time as a home to digital nomads, which was really also to a significant degree, thanks to your help and encouragement and spreading the word. So I will always be grateful for for that. and that that was that that was just a wonderful way to get it started. recently we've received a license that specifically exists for for architecturally protected historical buildings, which is close to a hot hotel license, or it's like an it's technically not a hotel license, but it operates in under a similar regulatory framework. So recently we have been using it as a as a short-term accommodation mostly. But I think it was important for it to, you know, start off as a home to digital nomads in particular. To the present day we still have many digital nomads coming for longer stays, but it's open to anyone that that would like to travel. Piotrek Bodera (1:03:27) Yeah, yeah, and I must admit I started with La O Orotava in Tenerife, so a bit above Puerto de la Cruz. the nine co-living. I actually had a conversation with Anna. so please check the episode where we talk with Anna about her co-living. And when I was ready to stay on the island longer. That was actually the moment when you completed the renovation of Casona Charco And I could invite some of the friends who wanted to stay longer. So yeah, I also thank you for the opportunity that you didn't just you know open it for the wide market, but actually started with us. Leon Ahlers (1:04:13) You thank you for filling the house with your friends and acquaintances. It was a hell of a party. No, it was great. It was great. I remember the you know, the fond moments on the rooftop with DJ nights and potlocks and the like. Can't be missed. Piotrek Bodera (1:04:30) Yes, yes. So this is the place in Puerto de la Cruz, but you also have other places like this one in El Medano. Can you tell more about the penthouse? Leon Ahlers (1:04:46) Yeah. Okay. So El Medano was is actually a town in southeastern Tenerife, which is used to be a a town for fishermen many, many years ago. Somehow in the sixties and seventies became a place for with a lot of second homes for people from Santa Cruz. And over the past thirty, forty years or so it's really become a tourism hub, but arguably a la a laid back. tourism, a lot of windsurfers, kitesurfers, families that wanna, you know, be on their own. So there are no huge hotel complexes and the likes in the in in the town. It's been growing and it's overall just a very appealing vibe. It has the largest natural beach on the island. It has a beautiful scenery with the with the mountains, the red mountain Montaña Roja, you know, decorating the the the the panorama. And Actually my my my family used to vacation there already when my mom was a kid, so fifties, sixties and then my my uncle bought a house there and then in the nineties the there was a small plot of land that was for sale and my mom decided to move ahead and actually buy it and and build build a building there. And then we've actually some ten, fifteen years ago, we started pioneering the short term accommodation in in this building. And I've been doing this for quite a while. Yeah, here on this picture you can see the penthouse, which is the the nicest or the biggest venue because it has two large terraces overlooking the ocean and it's quite quite nicely done, especially for for a family with with kids or if you need a bit more space. And there are also smaller units in the in the lower floors of the of the building. But yeah, we we hold this place very fond and we try to spend some time as a family there as well every year. Piotrek Bodera (1:06:41) Once again, this is the type of accommodation that brings nice memories for me. When I was a kid we were traveling to Italy, mostly the Bibione Ven Veneto region where a lot of nice apartments are in the Adriatic coast. And we would always look for something like this, yeah. Something where you have a kitchen, you have a nice sofa, you have a nice living space because it's just nicer to have the amenities that you know from home yeah that you can cook something that you can spend some time with your friends or your family and I feel that so many hotels are focusing on just like you know giving you some extra features in in like a typical kind of hotel room that is Crumped and you pay a lot of money, but you have a swimming pool or you have the all you can eat buffet. Leon Ahlers (1:07:47) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I see what you're saying. Piotrek Bodera (1:07:49) Yeah. Leon Ahlers (1:07:50) We've gotten that comment a lot because we used it for a long time for many, many years as a family. You know, the kitchen is equipped to the last tablespoon and beyond. So people are quite happy because they see this is actually a space that people have lived in and they haven't just, you know, gone through an Airbnb checklist of necessary items that need to be there. So I do Piotrek Bodera (1:08:10) Yeah. Leon Ahlers (1:08:11) that that speaks to people. Piotrek Bodera (1:08:13) Yeah, yeah, yeah. and the newest project is Marina Urbana. And it's a bit different, yeah, from the first two that we talked about. Can you tell me more about Marina Urbana? Leon Ahlers (1:08:30) Yeah, happily so. This is actually located in the very heart of Santa Cruz de Tenerife, in the center of the capital. it is basically on Plaza Espana, which is the traditional little center of of the city, by the harbour, next to the old town of Santa Cruz and where also the bustling business life of Santa Cruz takes place. this was actually many, many years ago also a project in the family business. So this this I think on the it this is a ten story low rise with many different uses at this point. But actually decades ago it was the family business headquarter before this low rise was built. I think even of my great grandfathers, I saw some pictures. and then I think it was torn down and roughly in the sixties or seventies this this this project emerged. So it's a mixed usage building of apartment, residential, office usage and and stores. And I just saw that given the location, the the increasing dynamism that Santa Cruz was living as a city, I thought that there was just an opportunity to do something quite quite unique that doesn't exist in this way in Santa Cruz, which was really high quality rooms and apartments with a degree of shared spaces like you know in house parking, small little gym, co-working space, communal terrace, and really be able to to have independent units with their own private areas, full kitchen, full everything, with boutique style bedrooms with, you know, a safe and everything at at a very high standard with AC units and TV in the room and whatever else you would wish for in a hotel, but also with the possibility to really make those your home and network in the communal areas that that are available. And increasingly we're we're trying to really position this as a serviced apartment concept with some co-living elements. And so far the adoption has been really great. we're booked out quite far into the future. but always you know, always looking to to to grow the business and to grow its popularity and to hear feedback from from you know avid travelers like like yourself, to make the the proposition even better. Piotrek Bodera (1:11:12) Mm-hmm. Leon Ahlers (1:11:13) Great website who made this. Piotrek Bodera (1:11:18) I actually helped you. I'm happy to to see that the project is evolving. For me, one of the proofs that you can get the customers that that need this kind of amenities that need this kind of location is just the awareness, what you Told me that some movie directors or whole sport teams are actually renting the apartments in Marina Urbana because Tenerife is such a unique place for shooting movies or for training for the next championships. So yeah, can you tell me more who else is booking the place and who should book the place in Marina Urbana? Leon Ahlers (1:12:14) The the place is open to anyone that, you know, is generally curious to explore Tenerife, stay here for for some time. So we focus on midterm stays, anything from three to a couple months. Anyone who is eager to explore Tenerife from from its capital and doesn't wanna miss any of the amenities they have at home really wants a high standard of of living and the ability to network and the desire to network potentially with other people that are doing interesting things. So we have many people that are digital nomads staying self employed with Spaniards, we have international people with entrepreneurs that run their businesses from from Tenerife Riva. As you said, we also have occasional film production companies that you know rent places for different parts of their team, as well as professional athletes that, you know, call this their home while they're training for the next championship. So yeah, it's a pretty broad spectrum. but we we also think this this variety makes it an interesting place to meet different people with all different backgrounds. Piotrek Bodera (1:13:28) And when we started developing the website and thinking about it, we were definitely focusing on the the co-living aspect and like building a co-living. Of course, again, like with digital nomading, co-living doesn't have a strict definition, so any accommodation can can use it. Nevertheless, mm could you tell why the the concept is evolving? Why would you see that okay, maybe instead of creating something that would be similar to a nine coliving that that we both know more into like serviced apartments? Leon Ahlers (1:14:12) I think it depends on how you frame co living. If you frame co living as a place that shares some spaces and provides opportunities for occasional and and regular encounters with other people in the building, I do think this is definitely potentially also a co living. Having said that, I do think we focus a little bit more on midterm stays than traditional co livings that have a month and less. So we don't do that. we won't People that are a bit more rooted in in the in the space and are st their intention is to sta to stay significantly longer. That is one aspect. And the other one is that for the time being, the rental by room, which is often a feature of co-livings, just has some additional complexity that for now I think we we'd like to put on pause. I'm not saying that we're not taking this up again, but we've seen so much interest. in renting the apartments, especially also the larger ones, probably four or five bedrooms as a whole, is just high. And we have quite good tenants, good people that are coming and and and and staying there and are quite happy. So we do think we're gonna focus more on this serviced apartment component for the time being. However, we have everything equipped that every room is completely functional as an independent unit. And at any moment it would be possible to rent by room as well. Piotrek Bodera (1:15:40) Sure, sure. Okay. Then you mentioned about Casona Charco in terms of getting a license for like hotels, but in the case of of this architectural old townhouse. Can you also tell how the rental regulations are are affecting the business that that your family is running in general? Is it going in the right direction? Leon Ahlers (1:16:08) I think we could probably fill a podcast only about this topic, so I'm gonna try to be concise. I think we need to separate two things. Co-living as such is not a concept that is known in the Spanish legal code. It's not a category that, you know, makes a lot of sense legally speaking. At the end of the day, you're providing accommodation for short or medium term, depending on your business needs or even long term. For certain people and you may or may not have additional amenities at your disposal. So there is a legal framework for each one of them. If you do want to do very short term, you need a separate license that comes with some caveats. In the in terms of the broader question, this is my personal view, is that there is definitely a situation in Spain where housing affordability has become very tough for many people, especially young people. I also personally recognize that there is a degree of a problem here. And I do think there this needs attention. At the same time, there is also unfortunately a problem with the speed or the lack of speed when, you know, you need zoning or licensing for new housing projects. So there it's very hard to create new housing as a private person or as a private company because the bureaucracy is just tedious and slow. In not in all cases, but in some cases. So I do think there is also a case to be made that To solve this housing and housing affordability crisis. This is another thing that needs to be done and also the the issue of illegal occupations of housing is also one that I do think deserves more attention. So I've my impression also with the upcoming elections in Spain in late November is that there is just a very polarized political ecosystem where I do think there would be a lot of space for for, you know, things that really solve the problem. For example, protecting tenants better, but also easing the flexibility of building construction and easing the possibility of resolving situations of illegal occupation, for example. So I do think there is no need for this degree of polarization. Alas I am not in a policy making position. So yeah, we'll see we'll see where it goes. It is definitely as an investor or as a person Operating in this field, a field that is challenging and where it makes sense to stay up to date on the political and the regulatory developments. Piotrek Bodera (1:18:38) Yeah, and I think your experience in studying political science give you an additional perspective and understanding, yeah, how to manage this kind of hot topic that affects everyone because everyone needs accommodation. And at the same time you're a business owner of kind of tourist focused properties. This is how your your your family and and you operate. So it's like opposing forces, yeah, like pushing them pulling, isn't it? It is Leon Ahlers (1:19:14) In my best case scenario is you really try to, you know, create a degree of value and design a degree of properties or rezone properties, create new properties as an entrepreneur that you can use for different reasons and for different augmentation types and for different vehicles. So I do think it it doesn't need to be exclusionary. I think there is much more potential for synergy in creating value that, you know, also creates employment, creates tax payments, creates reinvestment ideally in additional new real estate or the building of new real estate. So I do think while you certainly have a point that there can be a degree of paradox, I do think there is a lot of way to create better synergies. Piotrek Bodera (1:20:05) I appreciate you sharing this this perspective and your experience. I understand that yeah the the elections are coming and let's see yeah how the the situation will will develop. Let's focus more on Tenerife specifically as a as a destination, as a place that also has a special spot in my heart and I want to know why do you think this island out of all the Canarian Islands, is so unique and why is it attracting so many people each year? Leon Ahlers (1:20:41) Well, one is the obvious one, right? Warm weather year round at the just a couple of hours from continental Europe. So there there is not many competitors and certainly no European culturally, architecturally ones that that are that easily available. So you really can stay, even in the wintertime, you can stay in Europe with warm weather within just a couple of hours with a direct flight. So that is The obvious advantage. Beyond that, I do think Tenerife has just so much to offer, even though it's a re relatively small island. You have you know, lush vegetation, spectacular hikes, views that are incredible from different parts of the island. you have natural beaches that are truly breathtaking. You have a number of cities and towns that are just sheer beauty, some of which are, you know, UNESCO. protected in terms of the old town. So I do think considering how small the island actually is, you can travel around the island in an hour or hour and a little bit. There's just so much to see. This is Tenerife specifically. I know there's cases to be made for the other islands that also have wonderful things, but I'll speak about Tenerife because this is my my Piotrek Bodera (1:22:01) Yeah. Leon Ahlers (1:22:03) And I I do think this has been one of the reasons why increasingly there was a lot of attention and attractiveness of these islands in the broader international traveler community. And yeah, I I I do see this trend continuing in the in the mid run for sure. Piotrek Bodera (1:22:22) Yeah, yeah, and everything you just said is why I love this place, why I lived there for three years and and from the beginning it was such a shocking discovery that I've never been there before. I knew almost nothing about the islands, yet from the very first day I got the appeal and understood how attractive it is. And it's also something we were talking on on other of my podcast episodes with other guests that Tenerife for many people is like a destination for mass tourism, especially in the south of the island. There are a lot of problems because people come literally for a few days, they have ship direct flights from the UK or other countries and they they just treat it as a yeah, quick vacation spot. with many English pubs and you know music clubs and that's the negative side I would say the negative part of something that yeah many locals are are are not happy how this develops so I wonder if you know we were talking about staying longer about staying like three months or longer in for example Marina Urbana do you think that slow travel can be an A viable alternative to the mass tourism. Leon Ahlers (1:23:52) Yeah. So listen, I d I don't wanna speak negatively. I do think every experience in tourism or most of them, they have their they have a target audience and I I know there are wonderful entrepreneurs in the South Autonity for that cater to other needs within tourism. And to be honest, it's also the industrial stepping stone for the Canary Islands or the industrial the most important driver of its economic growth is is tourism and it's big tourism in the south. So we need to be honest about this. I share some of the caveats that you mentioned. And I do think there is a lot of very interesting alternatives to mass tourism. you know, whether it's renovating an old historical building and making that available for mid or longer term stays, to s some something like we did with Casona Charco or some of the other people that you've mentioned, like Nine Co Living did splendidly in in La Orotava. I think that's a beautiful way of, you know, setting in scene the potential of an old splendid building from the nineteenth century, even earlier, and adjusting it to modern needs, and providing it as an accommodation to to go and experience island life on your own. Whether it's dead or there are some fantastic projects in the north of Tenerife, that really we're where nature is the protagonist and where really you're at some absolutely incredible places that that that show you things that you might never have seen before in terms of the cliffs and the the spectacle that nature does for you and how you can use, you know, some rural, traditionally rural environments to create a hospitality experience. So I do think these are some ways of, you know, providing alternatives to to mass tourism. It is true that I do think the north, and I'm not alone with that opinion, the north of the island just has a lot to offer in terms of nature, proximity to architecturally beautiful places, cultural tourism, hiking and so on. So so I do think there is a lot more that can be done here. Piotrek Bodera (1:26:02) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the north of Tenerife is where I stayed most of my time and I I definitely get the the appeal because it's just more lush, closer to all the forests and hiking trails. So yeah, if you've never been a dear listener or if you are watching and wondering where to go, how to you know explore the island, then yeah, we definitely recommend checking some spots in the north. do you have any specific locations that you love on Tenerife Leon Ahlers (1:26:36) In terms of hospitality or in terms of specific places? Piotrek Bodera (1:26:40) In terms of like visiting, going for a hike and admiring nature. Leon Ahlers (1:26:46) Yeah, of course I mean o of of course there are a couple of towns that are a must visit. You will find them at this point in most travel guides, but places like Garachico, it's it's just such a beautiful little place on the forgotten side of the island on the more you know, northwestern coast. Mm-hmm. Obviously La Laguna, which is in is prote protected by the UNESCO, La Orotava which is also beautiful. You can see there is our already a dominance of architecture. and culture in the things that I'm saying. But beyond that, some some beaches that I think are worth a a visit is like La Caleta in the south, actually, which I I think is also spectacularly located and beautiful to to check out. And some some of the beaches in the north, like Bollullo and some other ones. And then all the hikes in Anaga, but I would argue that you're even a better expert in in those than me. Actually I remember at some point you sharing your your Google Maps. saved places and I was overwhelmed 'cause a lot of those are actually great and I didn't know them. So thank you, Piotrek. Piotrek Bodera (1:27:52) Yes, yes. If anyone is interested, I do share it as a Google Maps list so you can follow and and see my recommendations across the island. So yeah, many restaurants or hikes or other places are there. You earlier said that your mom kind of dragged you for hiking, but now you appreciate. Is there any specific trail or nature spot that you now love to come back to. Leon Ahlers (1:28:25) There is a number. There is one in our hometown, which is W Guamasa which is just this small town in the north of (Tenerife) Spain. It's not very touristy. So there's a couple of very small hikes or walks that we just I don't even know if they have a name, but you know, whenever I'm back I try to go at least once because, you know, it it gives you a sensation of being back home or close to home. And some of those places actually have a spectacular view over part of the coastal areas and and a couple of towns by the coast. Other than I really like Afur, I don't know if you've done that that hike at some point. It's also a cultural experience and an experience of nature. But yeah, there's there are many, many others, especially on the northern side of the island. Piotrek Bodera (1:29:09) Excellent. Everything we just talked about will be in the show notes, so you can check it and then save and see it in person. And one last thing about an Tenerife and about the culture, because in your apartments I was very impressed by how much attention you pay for the local artists. Yeah, for all the paintings, the the design, the colors. Can you tell me more about this? Why are you promoting this artist? Who are those? And why others should, you know, learn more about them? Leon Ahlers (1:29:44) So when we designed our spaces, we try to really make sure they don't look like just yet another place for digital nomads or yet another Airbnb. So whenever we pick artwork and decoration, we try to pick something that is local or somehow relates to local iconography, if you want. In many of our places, it's actually my stepfather who is has a couple of years ago decided he really he really wants to become a an artist after a long professional career in academia. And he is an avid painter. And we're lucky to have a couple of his paintings across some of our properties. And actually he will also have an exhibition in La Laguna in twenty twenty seven. So I'm quite happy that he will have this degree of recognition also on the on the island quite soon. Other than that we we try to feature a couple of Canarian artists with some of their motives, but this is more widespread. Piotrek Bodera (1:30:43) Excellent. Does your stepfather use a nickname or just his name? Leon Ahlers (1:30:50) No, it is his name. It's Reinhardt Sieder we'll put it in the show notes if you want. Okay. Piotrek Bodera (1:30:54) Yes, yes. Nice. Before we finish our conversation, I always ask about the healthy habits, because they are important to you know stay strong mentally and and physically. So what are your physical or mental activities that you do regularly? Leon Ahlers (1:31:16) Definitely exercise. I try to exercise a couple times a week as best I can. one is just purely a conviction, you know, for health and longevity to really make sure after a long office stay in front of the laptop to to you know to unwind and to exercise. So I do things between HIIT workouts. I remember us, I think, occasionally doing doing some together on the on the rooftop of Casona Charco. Or I go to the gym. I also, however, would love to take up certain team sports again like football. This is some a project for next year for me to try to incorporate these little pleasures back in our in our life. Alongside sports, another thing I do to unwind, I think you can see it here a little bit is I I love playing the guitar and making music. so this is also something that a couple minutes into playing an instrument one forgets about the world and can just, you know enjoy the sound of the music and the experimentation on the on the frets. Again. So this is these these are two things that I just enjoy a lot. Other than that, obviously the single most important thing is, you know, spending time with my family and my kids, which is also such an enriching part of of my life and being a parent, which I I wasn't even able to imagine before before I had kids. So Piotrek Bodera (1:32:38) Mm. And the meditation, you said that you learn it in Southeast Asia, but do you still do it? And then if so, how? Leon Ahlers (1:32:45) Do it but not enough to be brutally honest. I I'm gonna I'm trying to to get a degree of a routine again, but I have come to to appreciate like the degree of calm and you know, organization, reorganization, recalibration of my thoughts that this helps achieve. So I I do think this was a great exploration, but I definitely need to take this back up again in a greater degree. Piotrek Bodera (1:33:14) Yeah, but you know, on the other hand, I feel that many people find a state of mindfulness or flow like you know, running or playing an instrument. So I feel like you have a again such a unique combination. Austria is known for an excellent music like studying and and understanding, yeah, like starting with Mozart. I bet the exposure to music was like from the very early age. And then of course Spanish guitar or like anything that is related in Spanish and music is again so natural and and so ever present. So do you combine those now? Leon Ahlers (1:34:01) hate to disappoint you, Beotrik. In this case my parents tried to put me in piano lessons and I didn't do it. And then, you know, in my teenage years, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Nirvana, Metallica, these were the guys that then got me got me to take up the guitar. But sorry Mozart. Piotrek Bodera (1:34:17) Yeah, at least the revolt during your your teenage years, yeah, kind of pushed you to the direction of some American rock Leon Ahlers (1:34:28) There there we go. Yeah. Regardless, I agree that being being surrounded by places where muri music is just cherished so much and appreciated culturally definitely is is something nice that I enjoy now. Piotrek Bodera (1:34:43) That's good. So when you play the guitar, it's usually Red Hot Chili Peppers or Spanish music? Leon Ahlers (1:34:48) Yeah no, it's it's a lot of different things. I I started with, you know, rock and and and some of those traditions, but then it became much more varied. Some more jazzy tunes in the last couple of years. So you know, we all get older and so does our taste in music, I guess. Piotrek Bodera (1:35:05) Yeah. Leon Ahlers (1:35:06) Quite eclectic. Piotrek Bodera (1:35:08) Okay. So where people should find you online, where are you the most active? Leon Ahlers (1:35:17) Yeah. If you're interested in our Marina Urbana project, you can find us on the Marina Urbana Co Living on Instagram, where we also share some updates and news or events that we've done recently and always happy to engage on on that platform. Of course, you can also write to us on our website if you have any specific questions about that. And if you have any broader strategic questions about, you know, entrepreneurship on the island or hospitality. ideas, propositions whatsoever, you can always find me on LinkedIn which is a more generic place to connect with me personally. Piotrek Bodera (1:35:52) Okay. Of course I will link all of this in the show notes. So thank you very much, Leon. It was a pleasure. Leon Ahlers (1:36:00) Piotrek, it was such a pleasure and yeah, I hope to catch up in Tenerife or in Asia very, very soon. Piotrek Bodera (1:36:08) Indeed. Thank you again and see you soon. Bye. See you. Leon Ahlers (1:36:11) You bye bye. 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