Benjamin Lupton — Going Against the Grain: Unconventional Dating, Deep Culture Immersion, and the Art of Sustainable Living Abroad

Introduction & Setting

Piotrek 0:00
Hello, Ben.

Ben 0:02
Hello, Piotrek.

Piotrek 0:03
Welcome to the second episode of Nerd on Tour Podcast. Uh,

Ben 0:08
Happy to be here.

Piotrek 0:11
I'm glad that we had a chance this time, uh, to do this in person, uh, here in Bali, in Canggu.

Ben 0:18
This is true, first time in person.

Piotrek 0:20
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like we saw each other in person before, but this is the first time that we are actually recording in a nice, proper podcast studio in, uh, co-working here in Canggu. So, um, I would love to start from, uh, the part about learning languages, because for me, it's never ending, uh, adventure and it's, um, you know, something that I have always a challenge with, um, how it is for you with Bahasa Indonesia.

Why Learn Indonesian & Non‑Western Languages

Ben 0:51
Yes, it comes from the person who already

Piotrek 0:53
Multiple

Ben 0:53
Speaks

Piotrek 0:54
Languages

Ben 0:55
And is speaking his second language right now.

Piotrek 0:58
Okay, fair enough. Still, I consider English at this point as my, like, first language, because I've been using it so much. But, uh, other languages like Spanish or Portuguese that I'm learning are not coming so easily as English. Uh, and in your case, you decided to dive deep into the Bahasa Indonesia. Yeah, the Indonesian language. So, how it is for you?

Ben 1:22
Yeah, betul, betul, which is exactly, um, well, I spent so much time there. So, originally, I was just like, I want to learn languages that are antagonistic or rather contrary to English to absorb, uh, foreign cultures or alien cultures. Because if you're something Western aligned, you're going to be getting only content that is Western aligned and the Western propaganda. And I don't mean, like, propaganda in, like, the CIA ops and

Piotrek 1:50
That.

Ben 1:50
Things like

Piotrek 1:51
I just mean, propaganda comes from which

Ben 1:53
Ideas are propagating.

Piotrek 1:54
And

Ben 1:55
Different cultures will have different ideas based on different principles and values. So, I, initially, I wanted to either learn Russian or Chinese. But then, they're very ambitious and I have no plans to live in

Piotrek 2:07
Country.

Ben 2:07
Either

Piotrek 2:09
So,

Ben 2:09
Instead, I was like, okay, well, which countries have I spent the most time in and actually foresee spending more time? Um, and based on my location in Australia, its geography being next to Malaysia and Indonesia, which is like America's Mexico, um, then I chose to go all in on Indonesian.

Piotrek 2:27
Mm-hmm.

Ben 2:28
And, again, it turns out to be very rewarding and also fulfills my goals, which is they're also contrary to Western propaganda, I should

Piotrek 2:36
Mm-hmm.

Ben 2:36
Say.

Piotrek 2:36
They are absorbing

Ben 2:37
Some Western culture, but they still have a very independent identity.

Piotrek 2:41
Mm-hmm. Okay. So, why would you think that Russian or Chinese are the languages to, like, to pick, considering that they are also very heavily influenced by the propaganda of the culture and the political systems of the two countries?

COVID, Propaganda & Conflicting Narratives

Ben 3:00
Right. Well, I mean, it was mostly, like, during COVID, there was a lot of propaganda in Australia. Yeah, Australia had, like, some of the heaviest lockdowns possible for

Piotrek 3:12
COVID.

Ben 3:13
In our prior podcast, we did talk about how Australia respects, like, civil disobedience and things. But then it became clear that's not true. If you protested the lockdowns, oh,

Piotrek 3:23
Oh,

Ben 3:24
My

Piotrek 3:24
My God.

Ben 3:24
God, goodbye, freedoms.

Piotrek 3:26
Mm-hmm.

Ben 3:27
Would

Piotrek 3:27
You

Ben 3:27
Have peaceful protests suddenly being beaten and whatnot. So, that was kind of shocking. And then there was also the Russian war or the Russian invasion or special operation of Ukraine. On which side

Piotrek 3:40
You

Ben 3:41
Want to believe or

Piotrek 3:42
On

Ben 3:42
Take which side you want to believe. But, I mean, there was the narrative from the West and then there was the narrative from Russia. And they were completely contradictory. Like, there's no way to resolve them. And yet, if I listen to the Russia stuff, that one actually made sense compared to the Western one.

Piotrek 3:57
Exactly.

Ben 3:57
Completely unprovoked. And then you listen to the Russian one. I was like, oh, no, it's kind of provoked. So, yeah, the, so that's why I was very interested. And also attending, I watch a lot of international films. So, it also broadened my cultural awareness and diversity even within myself. And I love Chinese films, especially from Taiwan. They're amazing. They're filmed great. One of my favorite films, A Brighter Summer Day. It's like four hours long. Brilliant film. And, yeah, so also, yeah, they just seem like to be good places to learn. But, yeah, to answer your question. So, I became more aware of their contrary nature to the Western world and I wanted,

Piotrek 4:46
Mm-hmm. And

Ben 4:47
The knowledge that I would receive.

Piotrek 4:49
Okay, okay, that makes sense. And, um, I also try to pick the different sources to get, like, a better picture of a situation. Uh, but it's quite hard, yeah, like, if you're limiting yourself to English, yeah, because of the West, of how powerful they are, they are, and they seem to be speaking the same language, yeah, whatever you pick, British or English, I mean, American or Australian. So, uh, let's not, uh, dive too much into the politics and, like, what happened, what didn't happen, you know, in the last few years in terms of those tensions and, um, conflicts. Uh, I'm much more interested in, uh, the scope of the traveling, uh, in Bali and Indonesia at large. But before we go there, uh, I think you knowing the language, uh, really helped you with your unique approach to dating. And I really would like to, for you to, uh, like, list what did you do, uh, that is, again, contrarian to, like, the, you know, general public, how they are using online, you know, dating apps. And what you did, and, you know, successfully, you, you found a partner, you know, with your method.

Language Learning, Culture & Indonesian Wordplay

Ben 6:02
Yeah. Um, so, just, just to go back a bit, uh, to follow on the language learning and the travel is, uh, when, before not knowing a language, you're really limited to just, like, the tourist experience of a country or a culture. But then when you learn the language, suddenly you can have basic conversations, right? You're never going to have an expert conversation for the

Piotrek 6:27
Second

Ben 6:27
Or

Piotrek 6:27
Language.

Ben 6:28
You adopt it as your mother tongue, like Piotrek has done with English,

Piotrek 6:31
Right.

Ben 6:31
Right? So, doing that, then suddenly, like, I became actually more trustful and actually more, uh, impassioned by Indonesian and Indonesian culture. As I learned more about the language, you discover more of its quirks, for instance, there's a lot of symbolic translations that are different from the literal translations.

Piotrek 6:49
So,

Ben 6:49
So, for instance, hati-hati, which they use for "careful", is more like "be mindful" or "to compose yourself".

Piotrek 6:57
It's

Ben 6:57
Because hati actually means liver. Uh, so, when you say hati-hati, you're saying "liver, liver".

Piotrek 7:02
Hard to

Ben 7:02
But

Piotrek 7:02
Find in,

Ben 7:03
In

Piotrek 7:03
Like,

Ben 7:03
Asian, in Southeast Asian culture, generally, the liver is where your soul is, your heart is where your personality is. So, when you start to say, like, hati more or, like, uh, "liver you", uh, then it can roughly translate to, like, "love you".

Piotrek 7:21
Um,

Ben 7:22
Have, obviously, the, the proper word for love is going to be, uh, cinta mu. So, love you is cinta mu. But

Piotrek 7:28
But

Ben 7:29
You

Piotrek 7:29
You

Ben 7:29
Have

Piotrek 7:29
You

Ben 7:29
Have these different ones. So, like, baik is another great example where baik means symbolically good. But it actually means agreeable or obliging. If you go read, like, a Jane Austen book, where it'll be like, "Oh, you're so obliging. Oh, how obliging."

Piotrek 7:43–7:44
Right? So, it goes to

Ben 7:43–7:45
Right? A good day is a day that was obliging to you. Right? It was a day that was agreeable to you.

Piotrek 7:50
Uh-huh. So,

Ben 7:50
When you say baik, baik, it means, like, yeah, today was agreeable to me. Uh, which is, like, the better translation. And bagus is, then, like, good quality.

Piotrek 7:58
When, um,

Ben 7:58
Um, there's all these different ones. Mata, uh, mata-mata is your eyes. But mata means spring. So, or, like, source. So, matahari is the sun.

Piotrek 8:09
And hari is

Ben 8:09
Day.

Piotrek 8:10
Day.

Ben 8:10
So, the source of the day is the sun.

Piotrek 8:12
Right?

Ben 8:12
Right?

Piotrek 8:13
So,

Ben 8:13
So, you

Piotrek 8:13
You

Ben 8:13
Have

Piotrek 8:13
Have

Ben 8:13
All these interesting, uh, quirks of the language that you discover. And it reveals, like, their philosophy or the principles or the values of the culture.

Piotrek 8:21
Yeah, yeah, totally. Like, in every language, yeah, you will find those, uh, little words that have meaning and the etymology that tells you so much more. Right. And the moment you understand the concept, and there is a lot of those things that are directly incorporated, yeah, like, from German into English, and we have Zeitgeist, yeah? Like, we don't say the "ghost of time", because it doesn't really feel the same way as just saying this, you know, concept from German that really captures the moment, yeah? That we can say that the Zeitgeist of the 90s, yeah, was this and that. So, uh, it's nice to hear that in Indonesian you, you also got to this level that you're comfortable, uh, saying hati-hati. Like, we have here a lot of road works. And I saw, yeah, that the caution, yeah, "watch out". Uh, and then I remember what you just told me about the, and the heart, the liver.

Ben 9:21
Yeah.

Piotrek 9:21
So, mm-hmm. I

Using Claude & Tools for Language Learning

Ben 9:22
And then yeah so now I feel like I'm getting scammed less. Obviously if you're looking like a bule and it's funny, generally I don't get scammed at all in Indonesia 'cause I fit right in, but then I did buy like some bule-style shirts which say "Bali" in the typical tourism thing and as soon as I put them on everyone wants to scam me again, but not everyone.

Piotrek 9:41
Was

Ben 9:41
I

Piotrek 9:41
Like,

Ben 9:41
Mean like

Piotrek 9:41
Is

Ben 9:41
There's a

Piotrek 9:41
This

Ben 9:42
Certain personality of asshole that exists in any country

Piotrek 9:45
A, um,

Ben 9:45
Um, and you know if you, yeah, the more savvy as a digital nomad you are the less interactions you have. But just for learning a language Anthropic Claude is fantastic, it can give you the etymologies and that will really help learning a language such as Indonesian which is a very new language because it was invented maybe less than 100 years ago to unify all the different islands, um,

Piotrek 10:09
So

Ben 10:09
You have a new language and it has words from Indonesian and English but, like, it's also now the one because they naturalize everything, unlike Malay where Malay information will be information, in Indonesian will be

Piotrek 10:21
Yeah

Ben 10:23
So Claude's a fantastic resource for learning, uh, and there's also a book which is like How to Learn a Language or something like that.

Piotrek 10:30
Learn

Ben 10:30
The smart way.

Piotrek 10:31
Yeah.

Ben 10:32
For learning a language because before I always struggled. For dating

Intentional Dating & Switching From Tinder to OkCupid

Piotrek 10:35
Uh, my

Ben 10:36
Approach was I actually, uh, yeah, I came out of a relationship and then I decided to do a new relationship, um, and the difference was I—hold up, I don't, I really don't want to go into it, like, sorry. All right, I'm, I'm gonna apply it generally. Okay, so for dating I'm not going to go into my personal experience but I'll give, like, advice and or general advice.

Piotrek 11:02
Instead

Ben 11:02
Which is that, how do I do this? I'm sorry, I'm wasting your

Piotrek 11:07
It's okay, it's okay

Ben 11:08
Time

Piotrek 11:08
Ben

Ben 11:08
Yeah

Piotrek 11:08
Uh, my thinking was that you could tell me what you, like, told Arvina last time

Ben 11:15
Yeah

Piotrek 11:16
In terms of, um, you decided not to use Tinder because this and that

Ben 11:22
Yeah

Piotrek 11:22
Then you, uh, discovered that OkCupid is much better

Ben 11:26
Yeah

Piotrek 11:26
And then you wrote it down so much and then you had this, like, questionnaire or like a template that you were sending and then you, you know, kind of reviewed a lot of people

Ben 11:36
I think we'll just have to go talk about it personally. Um, yeah, okay, um, yeah.

Piotrek 11:43
Yeah

Ben 11:43
So

Piotrek 11:43
So for

Ben 11:43
For dating, uh, what I did was originally I did Tinder because everyone knows Tinder, uh, and I did it for a week and after, like, swiping for, like, a few hours and just in Australia and just being exposed to thousands of women in bikinis and alcohol, uh,

Piotrek 12:00
I decided

Ben 12:01
This is not for me. I'm not going to find

Piotrek 12:03
My

Ben 12:04
Marriage partner for family here. Uh, so instead I looked into the other options. I remembered one called OkCupid from a very long time ago. I used it when I was a teenager

Piotrek 12:13
As

Ben 12:14
Well as well, uh, which is a long time ago for both me and Piotrek.

Piotrek 12:17
Yes

Ben 12:18
But yeah, and then with that one you answer questions instead and some of the questions are absolutely stupid, they're only applicable if you are a teenager, like "Would you date someone who claps when the plane lands?" Who cares

Piotrek 12:29
What

Ben 12:38
Yeah, other ones are going to be like, you know, "How many children do you have?", things that are getting to the values. Um, you know, some are actually logical questions which will be like, like, "If this happened and then that happened and then this happened, what is the answer?" And then, like, that's a good filter for intelligence.

Piotrek 12:55
And

Ben 12:57
Then I have one which is like, "If you answered, like, different to me, please don't contact me."

Piotrek 13:04
Very

Ben 13:06
But

Piotrek 13:06
Very

Ben 13:06
The

Piotrek 13:06
Rigid

Ben 13:06
Difference is, like, I did a profile where I go very specifically into, uh, the courting rather than dating approach because I'm looking for a match partner and I don't want to, uh, waste my time and I also want to avoid all the pitfalls of my prior relationships, in which case I operated either on, um, chemistry or, you know, future, uh, goals or, um, like, vibe and getting along. Um, there was criteria that I had when I was dating, this is going back a year and a half ago, um, that more specific. But what I did was I did the courting approach and I made it very clear that I'm not going to jump immediately into a relationship and the way I did was I, yeah, I had this profile, communicated everything, communicated my stances and my principles, uh, and then I also—first week I didn't match with anyone because I had only domestic only. But then when I made it international, suddenly I got matches, a lot of matches, um, uh, maybe like 100 matches a month.

Piotrek 14:04
That

Ben 14:04
And then

Piotrek 14:05
Transformed

Ben 14:05
I would perform into 25 WhatsApp calls, I would do like 5 calls every weekend, and then those who I like calling with then I would then also call with them again on a weekend. If I like calling with them again, then I would call them on the weeknights instead. Uh,

Piotrek 14:19
Uh, sorry

Ben 14:19
So it was maybe like, um, over 5 months I talked with, uh, maybe 100 girls and matched then with, um, 500, uh, people. I made like five good friends-ish. Obviously I stopped contact when I, you know, chose a partner.

Piotrek 14:37
Yeah.

Ben 14:38
Um, but yeah, it worked really well, we were very clear on our goals and really, like, delayed things to avoid, like, the pitfalls of jumping immediately into addictive behaviours. Because if you jump immediately into romance, now you're addicted to each other and you need a good support network that then can think clearly to help you avoid the pitfalls of the addictive dopamine rush and oxytocin rush.

Piotrek 14:59
Yeah,

Ben 14:59
So, instead, if you focus on, you know, are you, are your future plans compatible? Do you have similar values? Uh, do you actually get along with each other? Are you attracted to each other? Um, those type of things, then you can actually build a relationship on, on good foundations first.

Piotrek 15:16
Yeah. Yeah. That's so different from so many people that think that dating and matching with people is easy and it's just a swipe on an app. And then you are, like, perfectly set for life. And, um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, in my experience, I also experience, I also saw that people in most cases, they look for hookups and even if they pretend not to, or they, you know, kind of tell you different thing and then they act in, in a specific way. Uh, it's very clear, yeah, that they, they just, and all of them are suspicious of the dating apps and it's like, yeah, just bad stories and drama and, and then, like, no clear vision of what people actually want from each other. And yeah, the OkCupid is definitely a bit different, even though that is owned by the same company as Tinder. So of course they have some incentives to monetize and then, you know.

OkCupid, Values & Complementary Partners

Ben 16:14
Right. One of the issues when I use OkCupid as a teenager, uh, back like 15 to 20 years ago, was that you answer the questions and I kind of answered them as if, like, I want to go with the exact same values. But then I would get, like, these women who are very manly or not feminine, like, they wouldn't make a good

Piotrek 16:35
Man,

Ben 16:35
Christian house,

Piotrek 16:35
House, right, let's

Ben 16:36
Let's put

Piotrek 16:36
Put

Ben 16:36
It

Piotrek 16:36
It

Ben 16:36
That

Piotrek 16:36
That way, because

Ben 16:37
Way,

Piotrek 16:37
They're

Ben 16:37
Being

Piotrek 16:37
Being

Ben 16:38
A

Piotrek 16:38
A male

Ben 16:38
Value, masculine

Piotrek 16:39
Values.

Ben 16:39
Values. Um, so this time when I approached it, I did, well, not just, like, "I want someone exactly like me." I want someone who complements me.

Piotrek 16:46
Um,

Ben 16:47
And you, you can form a good, good team that way. So that was, like, a little bit of a different approach, uh, this time around, because, you know, if you're wanting someone who is exactly like you, then you're going to have, like, an essentially an androgynous relationship. You're not going to complement each other that well.

Piotrek 17:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That speaks very well to my previous conversation with Derek. Uh, he's an online therapist for couples and, uh, you know, he's specializing in relationships. So even if you are single, he can also help you. Uh, the point is that understanding the dynamics of a relationship is a long and, uh, it's a long process that requires a lot of self growth because it doesn't come from a book. Yeah. Or like someone will tell you, "Oh, you like this one and she likes this one. Yes. Perfect. Then you are married for the next 50 years." It really requires so much, yeah, like making mistakes essentially.

Ben 17:43
Right.

Piotrek 17:44
Yeah. It's, it's not easy, but there are some people in your life, maybe your current partner, that will just help you to get better, to know yourself better until you find the right, you know, match because the current relationship just doesn't work. Yes. As you were saying, it's abusive or it's, it's, uh, based on, on, um, things that, that cannot create a healthy relationship.

Ben 18:08
Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially, uh, with my approach, it was a great relief for a lot of the people I match with because I had, you know, the prior typical, I guess, Tinder exchange where there was, there was some, you know, uh, abuse in power and abuse in the dynamic or, you know, a perversion, uh, things like that where it wasn't really aligned. And then when they discover, okay, I'm not really interested in, you know, jumping the gun. I'm interested in you as a person. "Tell me about you as a person." Uh, it also helped them come out of the shell and a lot of them, you know, helped them also through things. And I learned more about other cultures as well. And, and that was really informative. Like one of the matches was from Iran, another one from India, um, another from Peru, things like that.

Piotrek 18:53
Hmm. Yeah.

Ben 18:53
And a lot from Indonesia, but again, because of the geography, OkCupid is gonna prioritize countries that are closer to you.

Piotrek 19:00
Mm-hmm.

Ben 19:00
Um, so, or it could be a global conspiracy for race mixing, who knows, to eliminate, uh,

Maybe, maybe, they're all,

Piotrek 19:11
Perfect, FDS.

Ben 19:15
Maybe.

Piotrek 19:15
We are clipping this part and putting your name under it. Right, yeah,

Ben 19:22
Uh, I mean, I did wonder about it, like.

I mean, it also can just be like the eradication of, of, you know, conservative values from, from

Piotrek 19:33
Hmm,

Ben 19:33
The Western culture, which is a very liberal culture. It's about embracing you with the world's ideas, even if they're crap, and then if you survive those ideas, then you are

Piotrek 19:42
Mm-hmm,

Ben 19:42
Very strong. When

Piotrek 19:43
Mm, mm-hmm,

Ben 19:43
Conservative cultures, like say Islam, they prevent access to controversial ideas because

Piotrek 19:48
Yeah,

Ben 19:48
They view you as a weak, uh, uh, sheep to be shepherded.

Piotrek 19:52
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah,

Ben 19:53
The Western way is we expose you to as much, um, challenging, uh, things as possible, and we

Piotrek 19:58
Mm-hmm.

Ben 19:58
Hope you survive and become strong.

Piotrek 20:01
Yeah, yeah. And also, the conservative, uh, uh, subcultures within the Western, you know, s. Yeah, they, they also kind of prevent any new ideas or any new mixing or anything else, because it's like forbidden, or someone else told them, you know, it's, no.

Ben 20:18
But it's also like a conservative approach from left or right if you're American.

Piotrek 20:22
Mm-hmm,

Ben 20:22
Yeah.

And use conservative for the conservative left. They're

Piotrek 20:24
Yeah.

Ben 20:24
Wanting

Piotrek 20:24
Yeah,

Ben 20:25
To preserve the left

Piotrek 20:26
Or...

Ben 20:26
Identity

Piotrek 20:27
Yeah, yeah. Whatever their definition is of that, yeah. Um, I was wondering if you were matching with, you know, the partners that were far away, um, farther than Indonesia and farther, you know, from, from Bali and those places that you have been before physically, like, were you considering to, you know, to move to South America or, like, to Middle East only because you found, you know, the partner?

Being a Nomad, Starting Over & Purpose of Humanities

Ben 20:56
Uh, well, I mean, as a digital nomad, you have flexibility, right? Like,

Piotrek 21:00
Mm-hmm.

Like what the world is

Ben 21:01
Open to you. Um, and, I'm not, I'm not particularly sure. I, I, I'm sure if you asked me a year ago, I would know exactly the answer, but I'm

Piotrek 21:10
Yeah.

Ben 21:11
Trying to remember. I think it's more that, yeah, I was really interested in, in learning more about, well, I was just opening myself up again to the world, because the prior long-term relationship and that it failed.

Piotrek 21:24
Mm-hmm.

So,

Ben 21:24
You know, you're wanting to reorientate yourself in life and also find, like, a correct understanding. Uh, there's a clip I did just before I started a, a YouTube episode, um, called A Purpose of Humanities.

Piotrek 21:38
And I go

Ben 21:38
Into

Piotrek 21:38
Into,

Ben 21:38
Then, like, my philosophy, which is very strong at the time, but also my personal journey, uh, and my approach for the next year is where I outline, like, my routines and my goals and my approach. And in it, the last five minutes, I'm like, I cry where I'm like, "I'm a broken person starting from nothing."

Piotrek 21:56
Mm-hmm.

And

Ben 21:57
"This will be my journey to prove, like, you know, that I can do and share something that is of value." And then everything worked out. Like, last year, great foundations. Um, yeah, everything, everything's turned out great. So I found, like, a routine and a philosophy that,

Piotrek 22:12
Mm-hmm.

Ben 22:12
You know, provides integrity, like, strong roots to build upon. Um,

Piotrek 22:16
Okay.

Ben 22:16
But yeah, for, for the different countries, it's just, you know, a simple answer, which is just opening myself up and then seeing which things are compatible.

Piotrek 22:23
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ben 22:24
And also it's different, right? Because in Australia, I'm a complete loser, right? I didn't do...

I'm

Piotrek 22:29
Mm-hmm,

Ben 22:29
Not friends with anyone from high school.

Oh, I, I chose like a, a, a, what do you call it? Like a haphazard career of entrepreneurship, oh my God. And then like, I did digital nomad. And then like, you know, I have, I, I did everything the wrong way compared to, like, the typical Australian way,

Piotrek 22:48
Yeah.

Ben 22:48
Which is go to high school, you choose a career, you stay in it for your entire life. You buy a car, you buy a house, you buy another house, you buy a boat.

Piotrek 22:55
If

Ben 22:56
You don't have a boat by the time you're 40,

Piotrek 22:58
F***

Ben 22:58
"You

Piotrek 22:58
Up".

Ben 22:59
And no one should associate with

Piotrek 23:00
Well

Ben 23:00
You.

Piotrek 23:01
That's

Ben 23:01
The

Piotrek 23:01
The Australian

Ben 23:02
Australian

Piotrek 23:02
Way,

Ben 23:02
Way,

Piotrek 23:03
Right?

Ben 23:03
Right? And then like,

Piotrek 23:04
All the

Ben 23:04
Immigrants come to Australia to buy their boat. And then here's you, right? Like, you know, complete loser

Piotrek 23:12
To...

Ben 23:12
Compared

Piotrek 23:13
There's

Ben 23:13
No opportunity, right? So it's also being realistic about,

Piotrek 23:17
Like,

Ben 23:18
Where

Piotrek 23:18
Where

Ben 23:18
I stand, and, and the identity that I've carved out from the decisions that I've made over the decades of my life that has slowly shortened my opportunities for the future into a more hollow but more concrete and, and

Piotrek 23:34
I...

Ben 23:34
Solid,

Piotrek 23:35
Mm-hmm.

Ben 23:35
Uh, building of the framework. And it's also like accepting mortality

Piotrek 23:39
Yeah.

Ben 23:40
To an extent, right, like the older you get, you know, the less options you have, um, and you have to then be willing to, um, you know, accept. Like the, the lost time that you

Piotrek 23:50
Get,

Ben 23:50
Won't ever

Piotrek 23:50
Like

Ben 23:51
Now I'm 35, if I want a family, do I go to university and then start a family in my late forties, if I want to, like, repurpose my career?

Piotrek 23:58
Uh-huh.

Ben 23:59
I, like, choose something available to me now, things like that. Uh, so, you know, if you are like a loser in your home country, then yeah, you can be like a winner in a third world country, but then you have a huge power dynamic. And if you're still an arsehole, then you're still going to be an arsehole in a third world relationship, but it's going to be amplified because of the power difference.

Power Dynamics, Faith & Aligning With Biology

Piotrek 24:18
Do

Ben 24:18
Like, if you're a good person with, like, a good heart and you know how to actually communicate, which is incredibly rare, then if there is a power difference, you have to be able to talk through that and maintain that you are going to be equal as people, despite different economy. You have those discussions about the long-term goals and where you're at and the values. And that way, if there

Piotrek 24:40
And

Ben 24:40
Is a huge power difference, you're still equal as people and you need to put that first. And that's also a very Christian ideal. Uh-huh.

Piotrek 24:47
And

Ben 24:48
Say for me, I don't believe there's a deity in the sky.

Piotrek 24:51
But I believe

Ben 24:52
God is the evolution of the natural forces that govern the world.

Piotrek 24:56
Uh-huh.

Ben 24:57
So,

Piotrek 24:57
Right?

Ben 24:58
Which is a very atheistic or even secular perspective on it, right?

Piotrek 25:02
Uh-huh.

Ben 25:03
So, there's things that work and things we can align ourselves towards, which, going back to one of the topics that we talked about, like say, jumping into a relationship quickly, well, you're having sex because your body wants to have a family,

Piotrek 25:17
Right?

Ben 25:17
That's the purpose. So, if you're having sex and not having a family, your body's going to have a hard time. It's going to be quite confused. When, if you

Piotrek 25:24
Prioritize

Ben 25:25
Relationships that are aligned with what your body is built for or it has evolved for, then you're going to have a much happier life than trying to go against reality or go

Piotrek 25:35
Against how,

Ben 25:36
You know, you were programmed. Same thing with working out,

Piotrek 25:39
Right? Like,

Ben 25:40
If we're just sedentary all the time, our body is going to get very upset. But instead, we can run around in a circle and our body is still satisfied, right?

Piotrek 25:48
Like a hamster in a wheel. It's just like

Ben 25:51
These little tricks, right? We have up,

Piotrek 25:53
To step

Ben 25:53
Like, our body's programmed to do certain things.

Piotrek 25:56
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which brings me to the part that you really adapted the new workout routine. And I think this also helps, yeah, like the self-esteem and finding a good match, good partner, because the attraction comes also, yeah, from just being fit. And from just feeling internally that you are fit. Yeah. So, how it is? What is the new routine?

Building Sustainable Habits & Fitness Routine

Ben 26:21
Yeah. So, then December 2022, that's when I did that Purpose of Humanities and I outlined my philosophy and the goals. But one of the things I realized then is you achieve goals through long-term sustained practices, which is you find out the practice that will unlock the goal. And then you just do the practice. And that was so much different than, like, okay, here's the goal and here's the task, right? And

Piotrek 26:50
Well,

Ben 26:50
Then it's like,

Piotrek 26:51
How do you

Ben 26:51
Juggle the task if it's not through a practice? Like, if it's for work, are you going to work five hours a day? That's the practice. If you're going to work out, how much are you going to work out? If you're going to learn a language, how long are you going to learn the language? And then you do a practice and you commit to the practice. So, for me, I looked in the mirror then and I was like, "I hate how weak I am. I loathe how weak I am." When I

Piotrek 27:10
Lived in

Ben 27:11
And

Piotrek 27:11
The

Ben 27:12
I couldn't even do, like, a single pull-up,

Piotrek 27:14
Mirror.

Ben 27:14
Right?

Piotrek 27:15
Okay.

Ben 27:15
And

So, I got, like, a rowing kit. I started on that, did, like, 20 minutes a day when I woke up. And then I found, like, outdoor gyms. There was also an outdoor climbing rock. And I did them. And three months later, and I did it every single day. But then I think I changed it to five days a week. It's more manageable. So, Monday to Friday and then three runs a week. So, Monday to Friday, I'm doing resistance training. And then three days a week, I do a five-kilometer run. And I could do 10K runs or 15K runs or 20K runs. I can do them. But they're not sustainable. Uh, and it's also about, like, the trade-offs. Like, what—same thing for learning a language. Do you want to be completely fluent as a native? Or do you just want to get enough where you can have basic conversations? You have to, like, accept, like, the compromise.

Piotrek 28:02
Yeah.

Ben 28:02
Or, like, yeah, which goals you can reasonably achieve and then commit to practices around it. So, for the working out, three months later of, like, you know, trying to do a pull-up and, you know, just doing something fun. That's the main thing. I had to make it fun. And I'm not there where I'm, like, a gym bro, where I can just do, like, this repetitive, monotonous thing at the beginning perfectly, right? And so, just.

Piotrek 28:23
Like a proper Australian.

Ben 28:25
Right? Right? So, you're just doing silly things. You're swinging on the bars. Whatever it is. Like, you know, you're just committing to that practice. And then three months later, I was finally able to do my first pull-up, right? And then maybe another month and it was, like, two and then another month is three. And now I think I do, like, maybe 20 reps all up through a session.

Piotrek 28:45
But

Ben 28:46
The thing is now, like, I look at my body and I'm strong. And I bought all these shirts. Even, like, back in March, I bought all these shirts in Bali. And none of them fit anymore.

Piotrek 28:56
My muscles are,

Ben 28:57
Like, poking out the buttons. It's ridiculous. So,

Piotrek 29:00
That's

Ben 29:01
Yeah.

Piotrek 29:01
A perfect sign that it's working.

Ben 29:04
Yeah, but, like, I feel strong and, like, I committed to that practice. And it's the same thing. I just, like, in the video, I outline, like, all my goals. It's, like, family, career, things like that. And then you just find out the practice and you commit to the practice. And it makes, like, before it was tasks, like, I always feel guilty if I didn't achieve these tasks. And if I commit to the practice, I don't feel guilty. It's just, I just do the practices.

Piotrek 29:25
Nice. Yeah, yeah.

It really reminds me about my experiences back when I was a kid or, yeah, like, when I was a teenager practicing Aikido, the Japanese martial art. And I think it's very Japanese Zen style of thinking about the path. Yeah, like, the journey is in itself the goal. Yeah, like, there is, like, nothing will happen with your life if you do not reach Mount Everest. Yeah, and, like, you will not take this selfie on the top of the highest mountain. No, the whole point is that you are going step by step every day and you are a little bit higher and a little bit better. And then over time, you look back and, like, "Oh, my God, yeah, three months passed and I'm so much more fit. I feel better. I really see the progress that I made by those little things every day, but only if you commit to it, yeah, only if you are keeping yourself accountable and you have the routine, you have the habit of every day showing up and then repeating it." So,

Ben 30:40
Yeah. I

Piotrek 30:40
Love it.

Ben 30:41
It's like, there's a song by Bloc Party called something or other, I can't remember. But in it, he talks about, it's essentially a prayer to his future—no, it's a prayer from his future self to his past self to protect him.

Piotrek 30:58
Yes.

Ben 30:58
The past self needs to develop good habits and good routines to protect the future self when the future self is weak. So, for instance, if you eat healthy, you're protecting your future self from illness. If you also, you know, drink alcohol, you're—say for me, I love alcohol and I love the feelings and everything, but the next day, I am the most lazy, like, impulsive person. Like, I'll eat junk food, I'll, you know, watch porn and masturbate, like, all my, like,

Piotrek 31:26
So,

Ben 31:26
Inhibitions are just

Piotrek 31:27
Completely,

Ben 31:28
Yeah, gone,

Piotrek 31:29
Right? I've just become

Ben 31:30
Useless.

Piotrek 31:31
So, it's like,

Ben 31:31
Okay,

Piotrek 31:31
Okay,

Ben 31:32
I won't drink alcohol, not because of, like, the immediate effects, but because of the effects tomorrow and things

Piotrek 31:36
Like that,

Ben 31:37
Right?

So, yeah, the, yeah, yeah,

Piotrek 31:41
Is

Ben 31:41
Yeah.

Piotrek 31:42
That aligned with what you hinted to me before recording the podcast, that you made your life more sustainable and that you can now kind of scale it for everyone, not just for you?

Sustainability, Goals & Why Work Out (Again)

Ben 31:57
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hold up, my brain's just rebooted.

Piotrek 32:03
Take your time.

Ben 32:08
Because there was, there was something I want to talk about, uh, oh, yeah, um, just back a bit, for the goals, uh, it's also important to know why you want the goals. So, like, for me, the working out was one, I hated the way I looked, right? But it's also, yeah, we have, as men, we have a biological imperative to, like, work out and our body will thrive. Like, if I don't

Piotrek 32:29
Too long, I don't

Ben 32:29
Work

Piotrek 32:29
Work out.

Ben 32:29
Out, then my left arm will just, like, kill me from, like, working on the computer.

Piotrek 32:34
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ben 32:34
And then if I do the workout routine, like, no longer do I need massages all the time. Instead, my body's naturally good. It doesn't need, like, these corrective measures all the time because it's already corrected. It's already composed. But the other thing is for a relationship is if you are wanting a non-androgynous relationship, then you're going to date someone who is, as a masculine person, you're going to be dating someone who is weaker and smaller than you. And that comes with an obligation and a duty to protect them. And even if we're in a peaceful society, as many Western countries are, or hopefully are, there's still this biological wiring where you should still have the ability to protect them. And it'll also prevent, like, you know, the gym bro chads from always approaching your girl. Now, even if you, you know, you and your girl have the best relationship and you can view them as, like, silly people because you have a strong relationship, if you are fit, then it stops them from approaching

Piotrek 33:32
First relationship.

Ben 33:33
Our

Piotrek 33:33
Yes.

Ben 33:33
And also, everyone can take pride in each other, right? And I think for a man, what we're looking for in a woman is pride and family. And for a woman they're wanting security and desire. So if you can, like, fulfill them, you're going to have a really successful relationship.

Piotrek 33:50
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally agree that there are those wired biological needs. And then I think the freedom of our Western values and the world kind of allows us to dissect it or, like, not allow it to happen or, like, have the freedom that you can be whatever you want and the, you know, fluidity of your gender and your sexuality. And it's all okay that we have this freedom. But within this freedom, and that's also what I aligned so much with my partner, that we consciously chose both of us that she wants to be feminine and I want to be masculine. And we are just perfectly, you know, happy with our roles in it. And that's it, yeah? So if we have the freedom to keep our, you know, kind of biological roles and be completely aligned with them, then other people can have their freedom to seek and to find and to name, you know, whatever they are

Ben 34:59
And

Piotrek 34:59
Seeking.

Ben 35:00
Also the freedom to, in the prior podcast we discussed, yeah, with freedom comes also the freedom to make better choices. But also,

Piotrek 35:06
Yes, the

Ben 35:07
Make absolutely horrible choices,

Piotrek 35:09
Freedom

Ben 35:09
Right?

Piotrek 35:10
To

Ben 35:10
So, like, some things like polyamory is, from everything I've looked into it and from my own experiences when I was a younger adult, is it's not a sustainable practice. It's one that only sustains two tribes, but then if you're wanting civilization, it doesn't sustain beyond that. For a myriad of reasons, which is that one is it promotes intra-gender competition again, rather than competition—the women are competing with women, the men are now competing with men—where if you have a monogamous culture, they can cooperate because they're not always doing sexual, or hyper-sexualization competitiveness. And there's other benefits and things as well, but that would be, like, digressing.

Piotrek 35:54
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. I love the fact that we can always pick any topic and we can spend hours just by, you know, dissecting them.

Integrity, Practice vs Tasks & Comparing Yourself to Others

Ben 36:04
But I think I sidestepped the question.

Piotrek 36:06
Yeah, yeah. Like, I just wanted to wrap up the whole part of romantic life and, you know, successfully finding the partner with this unique approach. You are seriously, you know, thinking about having a family and then preparing yourself to support your family. So, I think this is the approach, yeah, that you want to be able to sustain yourself and then, you know, be

Ben 36:34
Oh.

Piotrek 36:34
Ready for others, yeah.

Ben 36:35
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, for, like, the integrity of, like, the philosophy. But to go back, again, for the goals, one other important thing, if I can, all right, is that by doing the practice thing, right, then, like, other Australians can look at you and they'll be like...

Piotrek 36:54
Oh,

Ben 36:54
You're

Piotrek 36:54
Sorry?

Ben 36:55
Earning a... Okay, we'll just fail. But, yeah, other Australians can look at you and then be like, "Okay, you're a loser," or whatever it is. Or, like, your mom can look at you and be like, "You're not earning enough, Ben. You need to earn more money." I have a job, I have a job, I have a long-term plan, it's working out. But even for working out, right, you go to the outdoor gym, you do your little routine and then there's, like, some guy has been doing it for, like, ten years and he's doing all these fancy things and the handstands and the V-sits and all this other crap, the muscle-ups, right. And if you're on the task or the, you know, just goals rather than practice, you'll be dismayed. But if you're on the practices, then you realise, oh, they've just been doing the practice longer, right,

Piotrek 37:36
Yes.

Ben 37:36
And same for working out. Before, I was, I just thought there's buff people and there's not buff people and it's just genetic.

Piotrek 37:43
And it's

Ben 37:43
Just like, no, it's just practice. Like, within, like, six months you'll stop hating your body and within a year you'll have some muscles that you're kind of proud of. And then two years you'll have bigger muscles, but you unlock, like, new, new workout things

Piotrek 37:55
Do.

Ben 37:55
That you can

Piotrek 37:55
New levels, yes.

Ben 37:56
Right, like, I can

Piotrek 37:57
Do a

Ben 37:57
More

Piotrek 37:57
Lot

Ben 37:57
Like, now I can do dips on

Piotrek 38:00
The

Ben 38:00
Up the bars. And

Piotrek 38:00
Bars

Ben 38:00
I couldn't do that, like, six months ago. I couldn't do

Piotrek 38:03
And,

Ben 38:03
Dips. And then soon, you know, hopefully I'll be able to do a muscle-up and all the rest. And, yeah, you know, you unlock these things. But it's the same thing for finances. Like, you

Piotrek 38:11
You

Ben 38:11
Know,

Piotrek 38:11
Know,

Ben 38:11
If you

Piotrek 38:11
You

Ben 38:12
Have a plan and the plan actually has good foundations, you can trust the plan. And that comes, you know, into philosophy, which we talked about in our prior podcasts. But, yeah, one of the things that has remained true over my

Piotrek 38:26
Have to

Ben 38:26
Approach in

Piotrek 38:26
Personalise,

Ben 38:26
Life is, like, I don't just care about what works for Ben. I want to find something that is true that, for everybody, I want to find what's universally true and universally sustainable and holistically good, right?

Piotrek 38:38
Right

Ben 38:38
I want to find what's supreme. And that's also why I've been able to use, like, such God language in a secular way. Because God, you have in the classics, you also... It would sometimes be mentioned as "God supreme" to separate them from the deities, right, or the force. And you have this more secular approach between "God supreme" or "God the highest and almighty", right? These are terms that are relating or pointing towards the spire of human consciousness and what works for humanity or what works for the world. And even for inspiration in that word, you have "inspired". Inspire is our connection from our soul to the ether or the almighty. And when we are motivated, it's like, what is our motive? What is our goal? But our inspiration is our connection to God or the connection to what is universally supreme. So when we're inspired, we now feel that connection. So the way I've tried to live my life or figure things out is I want to find what's universally true. I just don't want to get lucky in my life. Now, there's certain things that are down to luck, which is I was born in Australia rather than a third world country. Say even like in Indonesia, there's an island called Sumba, they still eat dogs. They're out of poverty.

Piotrek 39:55
And

Ben 39:57
They just pull teeth rather than offering fillings. There's

Piotrek 40:01
All these

Ben 40:02
Issues there that internet access or computer access is less. So there's all these things that are down to, like, economics or even, like, enlightenment when we go to philosophical edification rather than just education.

Piotrek 40:15
Technology

Ben 40:15
Energy access. But if you can find something that can roll out to everybody, then it gets really powerful. And so for me, it's always been like, okay, rather than just, like, doing a life that works for an Australian, which we talked about earlier, you know, you get a career, you stick to it,

Piotrek 40:29
Where you

Ben 40:29
You buy

Piotrek 40:29
Buy

Ben 40:29
A house, a boat, a car and all the rest, you have your little comfortable family and your comfortable life. Providing you're not an arsehole. It's accessible to you. But what's something that can really scale to everybody? What's a philosophy or a principles or values or axioms more foundationally that can really scale? And I think that's why I felt so comfortable living a life that to others is so bizarre. Whereas for me, it's just my life. So I never relate to, like, my life being unusual because for me, it's usual.

Piotrek 41:04
Yes.

Ben 41:04
But then when I do talk with people around the world, I can really find, like, the little nuggets of truth that can universally be helpful to people. And, and that's currently the current goal for the next few years is to start doing more activities in Indonesia to help edify and educate the population. So they can maintain, like, the culture and, and their

Their, their identity, but benefit from some of the, the education, edification that hasn't reached. So for instance, like when you go learn more about a culture, especially if you're willing to engage with its mythology of its language, of its philosophy, uh, you can start to, like, see where it, where it's kind of at. So like, say for instance, you get married in Indonesia, Indonesia only recognizes four religions and you have to be

Piotrek 41:55
One of them.

Ben 41:56
You can't

Piotrek 41:56
And

Ben 41:56
Be atheist. So there's Islam, Hinduism, um, Buddhism, and Christianity, and Christian, it's either Protestant or Catholic, and for instance, and it's written on their ID

Piotrek 42:07
You have to be one of them.

Ben 42:07
Cards

Piotrek 42:08
And you have to be one

Ben 42:08
What they are, and Muslim, you can never leave, so you'll have a lot of Indonesians who are born Muslim, and they can't leave, but they may be Buddhist, but they still identify as Muslim,

Piotrek 42:18
Of them.

Ben 42:19
And there's a clip on YouTube of someone traveling through Indonesia, and there was a Muslim working at a Buddhist temple, and they asked him, well, why, and he said, "Well, it's all the same faith, it's just different religions." Um, so, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, um, yeah, it's interesting. So the, so the current projects which I'm applying my, my skills in technology and philosophy to are going to be Learning Equality and Kolibri. So Learning Equality is a non-profit, and Kolibri is the software which you install on a computer, or like, say, a Raspberry Pi, and you get offline access to Khan Academy, and like, Wikipedia, and all these other learning resources, and then it allows tutorship, so then you can roll it out at schools, and now they have great access to terrific information. And the same thing can apply for Kindle, so like Project Gutenberg, which makes books available, or now with the boom of AI, you can start doing, like, narration, and things like that, and you can get, like, the wealth of information, because Indonesia didn't have access to all the philosophy and the, the competitiveness that was happening in Europe, that was core to, like, the areas around Levant and Greece, um, and the progress. So, going to Indonesia, it's going back 400 years to pre-Enlightenment,

Piotrek 43:31
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where,

Ben 43:32
For them, God is still a deity, rather than a personification of supreme natural forces. Right? Right? So there's certain things where the edification of philosophy is still, like, lagging behind. When it comes to relationships, there's still, like, these certain specific issues that are widespread through Indonesia. Um, such as, yeah, abusive relationships and other ones that I won't name. And these are things that are very simple to—it's simple to fix if you have a little bit of edification, like, you can have a concept of adult, whereas

Piotrek 44:05
In

Ben 44:06
Indonesia, no, they don't have, like, the Western concept of adult or nuclear family. An Indonesian is forever a child to the parents. And everyone is family. Everyone is your bro. Everyone is your sister. Right? And in the West, like, if someone was to call me "bro", like, "Hey, bro," in, uh, Australia, boy, is that

Piotrek 44:28
Endure?

Ben 44:28
Offensive.

Piotrek 44:28
I do not know you.

Ben 44:30
You're

Piotrek 44:30
You're

Ben 44:30
A

Piotrek 44:30
A

Ben 44:30
Stranger.

Piotrek 44:31
Stranger to me.

Ben 44:31
How

Piotrek 44:31
How dare

Ben 44:32
Do you

Piotrek 44:33
You endure? You

Ben 44:34
Have a blood relationship

Piotrek 44:35
To me.

Ben 44:36
Right? When over here, it's actually an invitation to participate in them as family.

Piotrek 44:42
It's

Ben 44:42
A very different thing. They wouldn't understand why it's offensive. So there's different parts here. And some of that is, like, great, like, great things. But there's little tweaks that we can apply. It's just as, you know, listing a business on Google Maps. But it's the same thing for, like, this cultural awareness, which is how can they protect their identity? How can they protect their identity? And Indonesia really cares about that because they believe there is, like, value there.

Piotrek 45:05
They, you know,

Ben 45:06
They naturalize the English words of the language. So information to informasi.

Piotrek 45:10
To information. Yeah, yeah. They

Ben 45:11
Care about keeping this, but they can get the benefits without the downside. So for instance, Kinsey in the USA, a psychoanalyst, like, led the sexual revolution with his discoveries. But, you know, you know, how do you apply that to, like, a majority Islam country or, like, a traditional conservative country without the pain?

Piotrek 45:34
Right? And

Ben 45:35
Such things as, you know, treating your woman as an equal and caring about her happiness is fairly new. And it's also because it's a taboo to talk about sexual education and things. So there's a lot of teenage pregnancies, things like that.

Piotrek 45:48
There's a

Ben 45:49
Great ability to really help, you know, bring about things. If you focus, like, your life on finding supreme, you can now communicate with people who have also focused on that through the different religions and help them find truth because they really care. Like, philosophy and wisdom is really valued in Indonesia when it's not in the West. In the West, as long as you're wealthy, you're successful. Who cares? And it's

Piotrek 46:13
Easy to be successful and wealthy.

Ben 46:15
But in Indonesia, the money isn't as important as, like, the happiness of wisdom. They value, like, happiness, wisdom and money equally. And they're very important parts of the culture here.

Motorbike Trips & Changing Indonesian Infrastructure

Piotrek 46:28
Um, I'm glad that you, uh, touched on a lot of different aspects of the culture, because I would like to move to the part of you, uh, having, uh, road trips throughout Bali and, you know, outside of Bali in Indonesia. You mentioned that you did over 2000 kilometers on a motorbike and, you know, discovering those, uh, kind of hidden gems of, um, this country. And, uh, I believe what you just said is coming from this, yeah. Like your, your experience is not just reading books or watching documentaries is actually experiencing this, um, you know, little bits of culture and those proofs, yeah. Like how they value, um, those things. So, um, I believe also knowing the language, yeah, helps you kind of understand and talk with them and then having, you know, meaningful conversations much more than that I have as a tourist, just visiting Bali for one month.

Ben 47:30
Yeah.

Piotrek 47:31
So, um, yeah. Like what is your experience? What is your travel experience? Yeah. Thinking about Bali and then, you know, around.

Ben 47:39
Yeah. Yeah. So first trip to Bali when, was when I was probably eight and I don't remember at all besides me having curly hair and everyone touching. All the time. And it

Piotrek 47:50
Interesting.

Ben 47:50
Was awful. And that's like the only—I remember how strong it smelt. And I remember everyone touching my curly hair. And I remember eating frog legs. That's all

Piotrek 47:59
Okay.

Ben 47:59
My—when I went to Bali as a kid. But, um, when I went, uh, again, in 18, we talked about that, uh, previously. And then I've been here several times. So now it's like, it's approaching probably two years that I've lived in Bali overall in my life. And I've done it—initially when I was in Bali, you know, I did the Grab and the, you know, I got drivers. But then again, in 2010, everyone will be like, "Mister, mister, moto, moto." Oh no, it'll be, "Mister, mister, transport, transport, massage, massage, woman, woman. Mushroom, mushroom." Right. These would be the questions on every single corner. You want five minutes. It's

Piotrek 48:35
Yes.

Ben 48:35
Those. Yeah. But now, you know, there's Grab and there's other things to, like, liberate the economy towards, like, a more sustainable and scalable, uh, economy, um, and to modernize it really. Um, but yeah. So then eventually I, I drove, like, the scooter for, like, a day and I was like, man, I love this. Um, I just borrowed a friend's one and it just, like, it opened the world up, like, the freedom of a scooter. And you would be able to relate to this, Piotrek, where now you're in Bali and you're getting a car everywhere because you're a giant, but

Piotrek 49:07
Maybe one day.

Ben 49:08
Yeah. One day he can get one of the Harley-Davidson huge bikes.

Piotrek 49:13
Yeah. Proper chopper.

Ben 49:15
Yeah. But then, yeah, I went back to Australia and got my motorbike license to drive legally over here. You need, uh, your homeland motorbike license, not just the car license, and you need an international driver's permit. But the main reason you want to do that is because you can drive safely. You can drive with technical competency and you can also have enough, like, social competency or defensive driving to, like, know how to move in the traffic to avoid an accident. And the other thing I highly recommend if you're driving in Indonesia is go to one of these liveleak-style or dash-cam reality websites where they upload dash cam footage of accidents or, like, post-accidents where you actually see people, you know, post-accidents gruesome. But paramedics deal with that every day. People in hospitals deal with—soldiers

Piotrek 49:59
These things.

Ben 49:59
Deal with these things. And as an adult man, I believe you have a duty to be able to deal with the horrors of life with an ability to protect those and help those in need. So it's worthwhile doing that because you will see what is luck and what is skill. Someone could be doing something a hundred times and they get lucky when they're overtaking and they have no visibility. And then on that, they think, "Oh, I've got a hundred percent success rate. This

Piotrek 50:25
Is completely

Ben 50:26
Safe." And now they have a, you know, the trucks that are driving between have a dog that runs out, they swerve and the person is squished, right? There's something that they may not see. So trying to build your environmental awareness for that by learning the smart way, by watching footage, is going to be a lot better than actually driving on the roads and having unexpected things occur. But the other thing in Bali is there's all these different things. And in Bali, the locals don't really have licenses or they don't have technical competency, but they have a lot of social competency. Uh, and one of the ways to phrase it is, like, your safety on the motorbike to an Indonesian is not your responsibility, it's the safety of others, right? So your responsibility is the safety of others, uh, yeah, when you're driving, not to hit someone else and therefore, your own safety is the responsibility of those around you, not your own. So that, like, puts some, some way, some guidance there. I'm actually going to do, like, a proper motorbike video with it and compilation footage, um, and explain, like, a little information one because there's so many avoidable accidents from

Piotrek 51:34
Australians

Ben 51:35
And from Indonesians, so I'll do, like, a little infomercial, uh, to help people. But, yeah, from the, the tourism, um, I've seen, like, all of Bali, saw it maybe, like, a year ago and now I've branched off to, like, East Java, I've also seen, and in November I'll be driving through Lombok, through Sumbawa, and then also through Sumba. Um, so I've seen, like, all of Bali, I do the rural areas, but one of the things that has changed is before I said the government doesn't care about Indonesians. Now talking with Indonesians and having so much experience, the

Piotrek 52:05
Government

Ben 52:06
Really is proactive because back in 2017 when I drove, pretty much everything rural was a dirt road. And now it is really hard to find a dirt road

Piotrek 52:16
In Bali.

Ben 52:17
I could be on the side of a mountain and everything, and it's still, like, a paved road now. It's amazing. So, like, the, the infrastructure is, like, getting better and better and better. Obviously, as soon as you go rural, they're still burning the rubbish

Piotrek 52:30
Mm-hmm.

Ben 52:30
And all these other things—they haven't figured out rubbish disposal. But then again, the islands, the thousands of islands.

Piotrek 52:36
Mm-hmm. So

Ben 52:36
You,

Piotrek 52:36
It's like,

Ben 52:36
How

Piotrek 52:37
How

Ben 52:37
Do

Piotrek 52:37
Do

Ben 52:37
You do rubbish disposal when you're thousands of islands? Do you just, like, decide one island is going to be the rubbish island and you just put boats there? What are you going to do? Right? So these are, like, complex issues.

Piotrek 52:46
Yeah. All

Ben 52:47
Civilizations need to face.

Piotrek 52:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm also surprised. I have been here six years ago. I definitely don't have that much experience as you getting into all the rural parts of the island. But I also see the improvement. Yeah. The change is definitely visible. And I'm glad that the society is also embracing the technology, especially the mobile technology, because I think most of the world that didn't grow up on PCs and then laptops like us, yeah, like being privileged in the Western world and, you know, being able to afford those machines, you know, that you put in your house and then you work on them. Everything is happening on mobile. Every transaction, every interaction, every social life, every business is happening on mobile devices. So now it's much easier to use Grab or to use any other apps to get around, to order food, to order anything else that you need in your life. So it's interesting that you wrote down this note that they are transitioning from beggars to contributors. Could you explain that bit?

Beggars vs Contributors & The Problem With Blind Charity

Ben 54:07
Well, I think it's not necessarily all of Indonesia. It's just that it was also about our responsibilities as nomads. Like one of the issues is in anywhere, even in Australia, for instance, like there's an increasing amount of beggars in Australia, which doesn't make any sense because we have a socialist system. And I asked the beggars, I'm like, "Don't you get Centrelink," which is like a welfare program? And they'll

Piotrek 54:30
Be like,

Ben 54:31
"Yeah." And then it'll be like, so what's the problem? And then they, like, go on about the dramas about how everything is someone else's fault and all the rest of the stuff rather than, like, taking any personal responsibility. And it's like, man, you're just wanting, like, the great mother to always protect you in the womb.

Piotrek 54:49
Retreating

Ben 54:50
Into this, like, infantile state, like

Piotrek 54:52
Going back to

Ben 54:53
Jung. But over—and it's also different because in Australia, you have, like, someone, a senior in their 60s, over 60s, and then, like, when it comes to technology, they'll be like, "I can't figure out this phone. What do I do?" And I'll be like, in Indonesia, they'll be like 80 and they'll be using the phones. Right. Like, so it's kind of surprising in that sense. But in terms of, like, the economy here, and it's a huge—I want to, like, reemphasize it because we emphasized in the prior podcast,

Piotrek 55:20
It's

Ben 55:21
Like, like, don't, like, just give out, like, tips or, like, money to, like, people because you incentivize them to become beggars and it robs them of dignity. There's a famous Indonesian moto vlogger and he's very popular because he has zero personality in his videos, which is, like, number one advice. Like MrBeast follows this, which is one of

Piotrek 55:42
The

Ben 55:42
Core

Piotrek 55:42
Core

Ben 55:42
Tenets, don't have personality because if you have a—you may offend or be contrarian to one of your viewers.

Piotrek 55:49
Tenets.

Ben 55:49
So if you

Piotrek 55:49
If you

Ben 55:49
Don't

Piotrek 55:49
Don't

Ben 55:49
Have personality, everyone can watch you and they can be happy unless, you know, you're more targeting adults, right? Because you want people who are, who have substance.

Piotrek 55:59
Yeah. But one

Ben 56:00
Of the things in Islam is a core tenet is charity. But then they can do blind charity, which is, they'll see someone, like, it, it was so offensive to me. Like, he, he went to an area, uh, in—I can't remember where it was, it could have been Java, it could have been in Sumatra. Uh, and he, like, he sold selfies of himself and then he used the money to then get, like, that he earned by selling selfies. Like, how narcissistic is that? But then he, he then gave the money to anyone he thought looked worse off than him. And it's just like, man, this, like, robs them of, like, all their dignity. Like, and he'll talk to a farmer and then suddenly he'll offer the farmer money at the end. And he'll be like, that farmer thought you were talking with him as an equal. Like, that you were conversing

Piotrek 56:49
As, like,

Ben 56:50
Two souls, two persons together. And then you just spoil it by giving him money by saying, "I'm better off than you. Here's some money." Well, like, and then you have things where, like, there's another clip that I saw about this, like, culture there. Because it's so exploitable because of that core tenet of charity, right, where then, like, people will, like, say, "Oh, I'm a street musician." And they go outside a business. They ring this bell as annoyingly as possible. And then people pay them money to leave. So they get the money. And then they leave immediately. And they'll be like, "Sorry, they're not paying you because they like the music. They're paying you to leave because you're a nuisance."

Piotrek 57:24
Bringing

Ben 57:24
They're like,

Piotrek 57:24
You.

Ben 57:25
"This is racketeering."

Piotrek 57:27
Like, noisy

Ben 57:28
Racketeering, right? When one of the issues that is common in, like, my situation is, like, I talk with people as if we're equals.

Piotrek 57:36
And

Ben 57:37
This is so different from, like, their interactions with, like, many Americans or many Dutch or even many French.

Piotrek 57:43
And

Ben 57:44
When you do that, like, their souls open up to you. And then you can really hear about their problems and what they're doing. And, like, a common thing is grandpas who never—by luck, they didn't have any, sorry, by unluck, they didn't have any children. Or for whatever reason, maybe there was, like, a bad divorce or something like that. But then the children have abandoned them. And in Indonesia, there isn't, like, a welfare program like there is in the West. Instead, like, the oldest son, like, supports the parents.

Piotrek 58:12
Mm-hmm.

Ben 58:12
Right? And then if you have a woman, then, you know, if the woman marries, then you will get money from the groom's family.

Piotrek 58:20
Mm-hmm.

Ben 58:21
But, yeah, there's a lot of grandpas who, you know, don't have the children looking after them. And then they're going to be—they don't have particularly any skills. But they're picking up the plastics and the rubbish, right?

Piotrek 58:32
Mm-hmm. They're going to earn an

Ben 58:33
Income. And if you were to just offer them money, they'll be so offended because you're robbing them of the dignity.

Piotrek 58:39
Mm-hmm.

Ben 58:40
But then instead what you can do is what we're doing now is we're working with one to get him a phone and to help him, like, communicate and get, you know, back in touch with his family and things like that. So, like, if you talk with them, you can really help them, like, find out, like, how they can contribute and then participate in trade. Because, like, trade unlocks, like, the empire that we have built over thousands of

Piotrek 59:00
It

Ben 59:00
Years. Like,

Piotrek 59:01
Unlocks

Ben 59:01
Civilisation.

Piotrek 59:02
A

Ben 59:02
And, you know, in America, you can spread the empire through guns and conspiracy,

Piotrek 59:07
Lot of

Ben 59:07
Right, and

Piotrek 59:07
Can

Ben 59:08
Wars. Or you

Piotrek 59:09
Spread

Ben 59:09
The empire by it being a supreme culture, right?

Piotrek 59:12
Mm-hmm. If you can

Ben 59:13
Do that, then, you know, you do it by volunteerism and invitation. And it will scale a lot better.

Piotrek 59:20
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Let's not, you know, put efforts. Let's not give us our attention and time for conspiracies and, you know, the American culture. I'm much more interested, yeah, what you just said about the true connection, yeah, with Indonesians and the mutual respect. And especially the fact that you can offer them something that is much more valuable than money, yeah? Because, like, spending time with a person, especially that you learn their language and you are coming to their country and you are just, you know, exploring and being curious about them. And now, uh, you're even going, you know, steps further to build, uh, technology and some solutions and then, yeah, and then actually, uh, find the pinpoints that they can benefit, yeah, from, from the knowledge, from, from, um, interacting with technology. Because, um, I, I think, yeah, that's definitely something we, uh, talked about in our previous episode where, um, there is so much good that can come from open source, eh, and, and from, like, creating the solutions, the technical solutions for the benefit for everyone. Not by, like, picking that, "No, no, no, please come to our social media only if you are a sexy girl." Because basically, this is what, what is happening, yeah, with everything in, in the West society is that the only people who are, like, the top are, are, are benefiting from, from the algorithms that, that know that, okay, yeah, if you are more sexy than the next person, then you are more popular. It's like, yeah, I, I also don't like this, this, you know, phenomenon and, and, uh, maybe there are no easy

Ben 1:01:25
Again.

Piotrek 1:01:25
Solutions

Ben 1:01:25
But

Piotrek 1:01:25
For it.

Self‑Governance vs Discipline & Global Civilization

Ben 1:01:25
You're a mature adult who has, like, some discipline over—is like, like, the other thing with, with discipline is, it's like, uh, I, I go into it, I think, I can't remember at some point, but I realized, like, self-governance is more important than self-discipline. And I

Piotrek 1:01:42
I

Ben 1:01:42
Always,

Piotrek 1:01:42
Always,

Ben 1:01:42
Myself,

Piotrek 1:01:42
I always beat

Ben 1:01:42
Myself up on not having enough discipline. But you can't have discipline 100% of the time.

Piotrek 1:01:46
Yeah. But

Ben 1:01:47
If

Piotrek 1:01:47
If

Ben 1:01:47
You

Piotrek 1:01:47
You

Ben 1:01:47
Have

Piotrek 1:01:47
Have,

Ben 1:01:47
Self-governance, then you can govern yourself according to when you have low discipline.

Piotrek 1:01:52
Yeah. And you can,

Ben 1:01:52
Plan accordingly. When, when, Piotrek, you, you are someone with, like, a lot of self-governance, maybe an excessive amount, but that's always a different personality. You're

Piotrek 1:02:02
You

Ben 1:02:03
Far

Piotrek 1:02:03
Can

Ben 1:02:03
More conscientious than, than I am.

Piotrek 1:02:05
Okay.

Ben 1:02:05
Um, so it's also, like, a values difference. If I had your amount of, like, detail orientation,

Piotrek 1:02:11
Then

Ben 1:02:12
Living in Bali would drive me insane.

Piotrek 1:02:14
Yes. That becomes a lot more,

Ben 1:02:16
Uh, flexible or less detail orient, uh, orientated,

Piotrek 1:02:21
Orientated, um,

Ben 1:02:23
Then, then, yeah, it's a good, good fit.

Piotrek 1:02:26
But,

Ben 1:02:26
Yeah,

Piotrek 1:02:27
Yeah,

Ben 1:02:27
I say that, uh, for that extent when, you know, but that's, that's like a skill that we have, like, learned through, through the benefits of our ancestors' work on, on civilization. And I mean, like, our global ancestors, I don't,

Piotrek 1:02:39
I don't,

Ben 1:02:39
Ben's

Piotrek 1:02:39
I don't just mean

Ben 1:02:40
Ancestors, right?

Piotrek 1:02:41
Mm-hmm. Like,

Ben 1:02:41
Civilization is this global brotherhood that we've been, uh, continually discovering and uncovering.

Piotrek 1:02:48
Mm-hmm. Um,

Ben 1:02:49
Uh, and we can help share and, and benefit through, through the world. Um, and not just, like, through, through, you know, evangelism by force, but by showing that this is a supreme way for people who, who are jaded or, or who are resentful is,

Piotrek 1:03:05
Is often,

Ben 1:03:05
Like, the best way to show them is, like, you know, there's a cliché, which is, like, "Love is, you know, the answer," or whatever. But,

Piotrek 1:03:13
More,

Ben 1:03:13
It's, it's

Piotrek 1:03:13
It's more that, like,

Ben 1:03:14
If you can, um, cut off, like, dehumanizing behavior, uh, and move towards humanizing behavior, or reward humanizing behavior,

Piotrek 1:03:24
Um,

Ben 1:03:25
Then things, like, will go—like, the world opens up to you, people open up to you, and communities and the economy, like, it all opens up to you. And, and if you're dehumanizing, you're seeing people as, like, cardboard cutouts, as personas, uh, rather than the person. And it's even for yourself. If you're, you know, holding yourself to a strict persona, then life is going to be very hard, because you have to hold up, hold yourself according to that.

Piotrek 1:03:50
Mm-hmm. And

Ben 1:03:50
It's

Piotrek 1:03:50
It's,

Ben 1:03:50
Going to be rigid, but if you, uh, your attitude towards yourself is you're always discovering who you are over your life. You're discovering the person. And the same thing for your partner, right? If you're, like, "I know my partner. She or he is, like, this," right? And then they do something surprising, like, unexpected. Like, you could have the attitude where you get pissed off at that, and you want them to return back into how you perceive them to be. And

Piotrek 1:04:14
And

Ben 1:04:14
Then you have an abusive dynamic. But if you go to your partner, where you're, like, "This is a person of beyond comprehension. Same for myself. And our goal is to uncover the person here and make our personification of them as close to the person as possible."

Piotrek 1:04:29
This is,

Ben 1:04:30
Like, a foundational part of our relationship with, with other humans as equals. But also, like, with our relationship to reality, where we personify reality as our firmament. It's, it's this little bubble or worldview that we are

Piotrek 1:04:44
Right?

Ben 1:04:44
In,

Piotrek 1:04:44
Like,

Ben 1:04:45
I have my firmament, you have our firmament, your firmament. And then we actually, like, bridge together, like, two bubbles sharing, like, space and coalescing when we're in a relationship or when we're. But then we go off and we go into our own firmament. But we want our firmament to represent and be, like, an accurate model of reality. And a lot of people, they'll be like, "I know reality. I know the world. You know, the truth of the matter is,

Piotrek 1:05:09
The

Ben 1:05:10
Reality

Piotrek 1:05:10
Reality

Ben 1:05:10
Is,

Piotrek 1:05:10
Is, right? These

Ben 1:05:11
These are

Piotrek 1:05:12
Are

Ben 1:05:12
Just,

Piotrek 1:05:12
Just like,

Ben 1:05:13
"The reality that I believe to be the case in my little

Piotrek 1:05:16
Well,

Ben 1:05:16
Bubble of my firmament

Piotrek 1:05:18
Is,

Ben 1:05:18
Right?" And then we've cut off. We're cut off from, like, the world. We're cut off as, yeah, from the world as it is. Um, so these are, like, all problems. So, like, but a lot of people, like, they don't have, like, this gift of, like, the, the reality-firmament divide or the person-persona divide. They don't have that gift. And, and it's like our duty,

Piotrek 1:05:37
Or

Ben 1:05:37
At least my duty, which I've taken upon myself to help spread these, uh, things to really benefit because, uh, I've read, like, a book by, uh, Mortimer J. Adler, How to Read a Book. And

Piotrek 1:05:51
To,

Ben 1:05:51
Then he did—he's done a whole follow-up, um, of things about, you know, your introduction to philosophy, but he was also the one who rolled out the, the Western education system.

Piotrek 1:06:00
Um,

Ben 1:06:00
Um, and one of them is called Paideia, I think, or maybe not—that's the one about, like, religion—but

Piotrek 1:06:06
And

Ben 1:06:06
There's

Piotrek 1:06:06
There's

Ben 1:06:07
A

Piotrek 1:06:07
A,

Ben 1:06:07
Term and it's for, um, teaching and the value of teaching. And I was like, okay, so what is the value of teaching? I never knew. I was just like, man, if I figured it out, someone else should be able to figure it out. And if they haven't

Piotrek 1:06:18
Figured it out,

Ben 1:06:18
Fuck them. Right. That

Piotrek 1:06:20
And that

Ben 1:06:20
Was

Piotrek 1:06:20
Was,

Ben 1:06:21
Like, my approach, right? Very disagreeable and not, not like a very masculine style.

Piotrek 1:06:26
Yeah.

Ben 1:06:27
When reading this, it's just like, well, I, like, completely—that word, like, that belief neglects all the great teachers that I've had in my life. And it's through their fortune that I was able to develop the ability to think and the ability to think critically and question my own thinking.

Piotrek 1:06:44
And

Ben 1:06:45
This

Piotrek 1:06:45
This

Ben 1:06:45
Is

Piotrek 1:06:45
Is,

Ben 1:06:45
Like a privilege that we owe to civilization's ancestors. And if we don't, like, give that to others, then we are, like, cursing them to the harm, of bad thinking.

Piotrek 1:06:57
Yeah.

Ben 1:06:57
And that's something that, like, we—that, like, if you see someone, like, tripping over and falling, then, and you can try and help them, like, get better shoes or, like, tie the shoelaces or things like that. Right. Because it—like, and sure, there's, like, a lot of people who are aged as adults still behaving like children. They know, like, you know, they're tripping and falling because they haven't learned to tie the shoes. But if you can help them in, like, these little ways where you can teach them how to tie their shoes rather than always tying the shoes for them, then we can start equipping them with the ability to take on bigger and bigger challenges in their life. And intellectually, there's some really basic ones like, say, teaching fallacies. This is, like, a foundational part to the education system. It's, like, teaching people fallacies. So then

Piotrek 1:07:42
They can

Ben 1:07:42
Think critically.

Piotrek 1:07:44
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, I believe, connected to how you want to approach the work that you want to do in Indonesia. Yeah. That you, you, you want to give people tools. You don't want to give them a textbooks. And that they have to, like, study each page and, like, remember by heart each word that was

Ben 1:08:09
Exactly.

Piotrek 1:08:09
Written.

Ben 1:08:10
Which is so popular, like on the TikToks of India, where you just have—have you ever gone down this rabbit hole?

Piotrek 1:08:16
Nope. So there's this

Ben 1:08:17
Huge rabbit hole of, like, Indian students, like, just memorizing things. And, like, they have no idea what any of it means. And they're just memorizing. Yeah. It's, it's something. But yeah, it's kind of teaching people, I think. But, like, one example, which is going to be the first thing we're going to do, me and my partner in

Piotrek 1:08:35
Is

Ben 1:08:35
This—do sexual education videos. So how do you do sexual education videos in a predominantly Muslim country

Piotrek 1:08:43
And

Ben 1:08:44
Do it respectfully when it's a taboo? And I'll be like, okay, we do it to the parents and then they can have the one-on-one conversation with the children.

Piotrek 1:08:54
And they're going to

Ben 1:08:54
Be better off at doing it with the children than any stranger on the internet, any parasocial relationship will do. We equip the parents with the skills to educate and edify the children on sexual relationships. And in which case it'll be sexual health and safety, but also sexual ethics and dating and, and, and intercourse of also not just your souls or your bodies, uh, yeah, also your souls, I mean, like, you know, the conversation, like,

Piotrek 1:09:20
Yeah.

Ben 1:09:20
Because you shouldn't, like, like, it's even going back to, like, the classics, right, where, like, you read, like, the West before they, like, develop these abilities to, like, converse properly, and it's, like, there's, like—if you read, like, Proust,

Piotrek 1:09:34
Mm-hmm.

Ben 1:09:35
Where he's talking about Remembrance of Things Past, his—that series, man, that is, like, a tragedy of, like, poor communication and relationships, and, like, a discovery of, of the person-persona divide. It is, like, one hell of a tragedy, and it's brilliant, yeah.

Piotrek 1:09:53
Okay, okay, we will add it to the show notes, um, so, um, it's, uh, I would like to, um, uh, cover a bit more about this project, but before we go there, I would like to wrap up the, um, um, talking about, uh, infrastructure in Bali, and, uh, your perspective of how, uh, Indonesia and, uh, government is actually, you know, helping to, to, uh, establish it, uh, to, to, to be better, also for us, yeah, for the tourists, for the Westerners coming, or, you know, staying here long-term. I am so, uh, happy that, uh, the co-working that I was using six years ago, um, was just, like, a simple hut, uh, with maybe one room where everyone were cramped, and it was a nice vibe, yeah, it was definitely, like, okay, we go together to, uh, you know, makan makan, have some lunch, and then we go back, and, you know, everyone is working on their own projects. And now I am on this, like, high-end, uh, corporate level with all the amenities, with all the, like, super Wi-Fi, and, like, you know, wired cables, uh, to connect when you are on your Zoom call in the, you know, soundproof booth, and we are currently in a, in a podcast studio, like a professional streaming, uh, with lights and cameras. Uh, we are not recording anything like video, just audio, so—but still, you know, people can come here and record, uh, you know, high-quality production if they need. So, uh, this, uh, is connected to the whole digital nomad culture, and I think you also have some take on it, and do you still, like, consider yourself, uh, as part of this, and, uh, what changed when you turned 35?

Digital Nomad Culture After 35

Ben 1:11:43
Yeah, uh, so, I think, uh, a lot of stuff, which I never realized earlier—like, when I got really into philosophy, I was, like, "Man, everyone needs to get into philosophy," or, like, when I was digital nomad, I'm, like, "Everyone, like,"

Piotrek 1:11:56
It's, like,

Ben 1:11:57
Because you don't realize, like, how small, or not really how small, but just, like, like, how unique you actually are, I think,

Piotrek 1:12:05
Right,

Ben 1:12:06
And say now that I'm, you know, in my mid-30s, uh, is, is, um, uh, yeah, it's, like, I, I don't have any care, really, to meet up with other digital nomads,

Piotrek 1:12:21
Things

Ben 1:12:22
Like that, um, and, and it's, like, to do, like, the co-working, co-living stuff as before, it's just, like, I just, I have my own life, I have my own practices, I have my own routines, and I have my own friends, and, like, you know, I'll, I'll have that, and, and I'll clue into it. But it's also similar to Australia, like, Australians are very clingy, because they already have this foundation of their life that they've built, and you can say hi to them, but you're just going to be that acquaintance at the outdoor gym, and it's very hard for people to bridge that, especially if they're foreigners trying to integrate with Australia, right, because they'll have these little acquaintances at these different activities, but it's very hard for them to become friends. Whereas, like, you know, if you're just starting off traveling, then it's, like, man, the world is new to you, you can be a new person,

Piotrek 1:13:06
As

Ben 1:13:07
Well, you can find who you are, and, you know, through this experimentation, you know, people go here, they'll find new loves, they'll do the Eat Pray Love thing, whatever it is, right, and you, you can certainly have this approach anytime, right. A lot of people have lived, like, a very insulated and privileged life up until they're 50, and now suddenly they're having the midlife crisis, and they want to branch out and have these experiences. But then if you've, like, done that kind of branching out, you know, your entire life, then now you've got, like, a really good foundation

Piotrek 1:13:37
Are,

Ben 1:13:37
Of who you

It's also dynamic, like, a dynamic—it's not like a rigid thing, it's

Piotrek 1:13:43
But

Ben 1:13:43
Dynamic in terms of, you can apply who you are to a whole variety of situations and be comfortable because you've developed, like, integrity where you have a strong foundation that is able to withstand challenges. I'm not having axiomatic challenges like I would when I'm a teenager, like, "Oh my gosh, the first relationship, what should I do? How

Piotrek 1:14:01
How

Ben 1:14:01
Do

Piotrek 1:14:01
Do

Ben 1:14:01
I,

Piotrek 1:14:01
I do this? Oh,

Ben 1:14:02
Should I touch her leg? Should I not

Piotrek 1:14:03
Leg?

Ben 1:14:04
Touch her

Piotrek 1:14:04
Should I kiss?

Ben 1:14:05
How do I even kiss? How

Piotrek 1:14:06
Even

Ben 1:14:06
Do I

Piotrek 1:14:07
Kiss?

Ben 1:14:07
Right? Like, there's all these things that are completely new to you,

Piotrek 1:14:11
Right?

Ben 1:14:11
Right?

Piotrek 1:14:11
And these

Ben 1:14:12
Things, like, grow and, you know, the older you get, the more routine, I guess. But also, like, just the faster time, like, flies by because, like, there's less things that are novel. But then again, like, traveling, it's also great. Like, for me, I've kind of been able to keep that, like, curiosity and that approach. But, yeah, when it comes to, like, the co-working, co-living, or even, like, philosophy, like, to orientate yourself in life, like, it's going to be something that teenagers or young adults, like, up until 30, you're going to be really interested in. How do I orientate myself in the future? How do I know who I am?

Piotrek 1:14:45
But then

Ben 1:14:46
After you're over 30, it's really only going to come up again if you've had, like, some traumas that you didn't, like, successfully... Like, if you were operating on poor axioms and you had rocky foundations, whereas if you've continually revised and improved your foundations throughout life, then you don't have rocky foundations, you have rooted foundations, and it can build upon them.

Piotrek 1:15:09
So,

For instance, for instance, like,

Ben 1:15:14
The

Piotrek 1:15:14
There

Ben 1:15:14
Hub

Piotrek 1:15:14
Was

Ben 1:15:14
Of

Piotrek 1:15:14
A

Ben 1:15:14
Bali

Piotrek 1:15:14
Baby

Ben 1:15:14
Right

Piotrek 1:15:15
Now,

Ben 1:15:15
Now. Piotrek is in Canggu, the hub of everything, right? The

Piotrek 1:15:18
The

Ben 1:15:18
Hub of the restaurants, the hub of the nightlife, the hub of the co-working, the hub of the socialization, the hub of

Piotrek 1:15:24
Hub

Ben 1:15:24
Bule,

Piotrek 1:15:24
Of Bali,

Ben 1:15:25
The

Piotrek 1:15:25
The

Ben 1:15:25
Hub of, like,

Piotrek 1:15:26
Hub

Ben 1:15:26
The

Piotrek 1:15:26
Of

Ben 1:15:27
Westernized

Piotrek 1:15:27
Bostonite,

Ben 1:15:27
Indonesia.

Piotrek 1:15:28
The hub of everything,

Ben 1:15:29
Right? Before, that was Seminyak or Ubud

Piotrek 1:15:31
Whatever.

Ben 1:15:31
Or

Piotrek 1:15:31
But that was because of your recommendation.

Ben 1:15:35
And, like, for me, I'm now, like, 20 minutes, like, 10 minutes west of Ubud and, like, 40 minutes motorbike drive from, like, north of Canggu, right? But it's, like, that's fine for where I'm at, right? Like, I don't need that. But, yeah, I want to hear from your perspective, how

Piotrek 1:15:51
About, like,

Ben 1:15:52
My—because on my Google Maps, I have, like, thousands of entries on Google Maps, and I have everything

Piotrek 1:15:56
Like,

Ben 1:15:56
Organized,

Piotrek 1:15:57
I

Ben 1:15:57
And,

Piotrek 1:15:57
See a shared

Ben 1:15:57
Like,

Piotrek 1:15:58
List.

Ben 1:15:58
How—was that helpful for you in your digital nomad experience, Piotrek?

Using Shared Local Knowledge as a Digital Nomad

Piotrek 1:16:03
Yes, definitely. You know, I want to use the knowledge and experience of people who have been here before, and this one vegan restaurant, for example, Alkaline Vegan, yeah, just next door, is one of my favorite places here in Canggu, and it's kind of hard for me to find something that I enjoy, because... Basically everything here is now so, uh, focused on the tourists. Yeah. Like I have been working in the traveling industry, so I understand the dynamic and I understand that the restaurants have to, like, um, you know, um, up each other, uh, in terms of like, "Oh, now we have, like, vegan lasagna and some, like, chia, you know, smoothie with coconut, uh, virgin oil," and like, yeah, but I just want some basic Indonesian food. I want tempeh, not, you know, like Italian, uh, you know, speciality. So, uh, it's nice to, um, explore and how much, you know, everything changed and, uh, just, like, thinking from the digital nomad perspective, um, I'm actually glad that now it's easier than it was the six years ago.

Ben 1:17:22
Hmm.

Piotrek 1:17:22
Yeah. And, and that's also my mission and by recording those episodes and by sharing the experiences that we had. And of course, you know, we are getting older, we have our own, you know, share of things, crazy stuff that we were doing when we were in our twenties and now we seek different things. Yeah. Like maybe next time we'll record the episode, we'll both have families or, you know, whatever, you know, will change in our lives. But, uh, I think it's, um, there is, uh, so much value in the perspective of traveling. Yeah. Yeah. Like the digital nomad is, let's say, the current phase and the current idea of how traveling should be, yeah, that you bring your laptop, you can find a co-working, you can still stay in Bali for one month or go to Malaysia for three months.

Yeah. Um, so, um, I want to, um, um, make it more accessible, uh, through, you know, sharing our conversations. And if, you know, they have already this base that they can feel safe, that they can come to the hotel or some villa and have their, like, comfort zone secured, then, you know, the next step is what you are doing. Yeah. And this is what I love—to never, you know, just close yourself and, and remain in your safe bubble and, you know, bring your bros from Australia and only stay with them for the whole month. And then didn't even go to warung, yeah. And to, to have some, like, proper Indonesian food and have it so spicy that you can barely eat. This is, you know, the, the exploration that everyone should do at least, you know, go for one weekend. Yeah. Like, go explore on your bikes or, or with a car, but go somewhere that is not touristic. Yeah. And, and it's not, like, super explored and, and just, you know, find something, try to talk with the locals, treat them, you know, equally, don't give them money for sure. So this is, you know, my thinking.

When Travel Reinforces National Pride

Ben 1:19:27
Yeah. I wonder as well, uh, because some tourists, right, like when—it's funny, especially, like, when you get, like, the Chad Westerner, right, when they're, like, 18, they've gone to an Ivy League school or whatever, and they're like, "Travel is so important. You need to travel to know yourself and where you fit in," and they'll go to India or they go to Indonesia or they go to Mexico. And, like, for them, it's like, "This place is a shithole. I am so lucky to be American and I'm so proud to be American." And then they double down on, like, this American identity or wherever they're from, right, this first world country. Like, for them, like, it's like, it seems—I mean, I get it. Right. Like, it's, it's—I understand it completely. But I wonder, like,

Piotrek 1:20:11
Like,

Ben 1:20:12
Is there a way to, like, help them have, like, the experience that we have? Or even if we should let them have that experience, because we do need, like, the Wall Street bankers and—or maybe we don't, I don't know, but I

Piotrek 1:20:23
Okay.

Ben 1:20:23
Mean,

Piotrek 1:20:23
Like it's a

Ben 1:20:23
Like

Piotrek 1:20:23
Different

Ben 1:20:24
Vibe.

Piotrek 1:20:24
Vibe.

Ben 1:20:24
Right.

Piotrek 1:20:24
Right.

Ben 1:20:25
And like, I wonder if there's a way to bridge that or whether or not it's, it's,

Piotrek 1:20:28
It's just fine

Ben 1:20:29
For it to be separate.

Travel, Trauma & Why Exposure Can Go Both Ways

Piotrek 1:20:32
In the end, I think it is very, uhm, connected to the education, yeah, to, to what you said and to, to, to the approach that you are taking with your projects, with your work, that, uhm, I don't know exactly why is it happening, yeah, why two people, like twins, can, can be exposed to the same traumatic event and then one of them would be better off, yeah, would be like, "Okay, this gave me, like, power for the rest of the world. The rest of my life I will be, you know, become a billionaire, I will change the world," and the second one is broken and will remain broken until the end of their life because, like, yeah, it was just too much, I cannot handle it. So maybe something in the psyche, maybe something in the genes, maybe there are some other things that we are still yet to discover to understand why the same thing can, can have those two sides, yeah, and those two effects on us. I try and I strive for the, the perspective that traveling is really benefiting and it's, uh, enriching us, it's enriching the life of us as travelers and it's enriching the life of the locals who are not privileged enough, uh, to explore other countries, yeah, and to, to explore other cultures. But just, you know, like I, I really, I really like the feeling if I'm getting into the car of a Grab or some other driver and he's curious about me, yeah, he, he wants to really have a conversation, but not on a basic level. Like, "Oh, which country are you coming from," and then, then it's dropping dead. No, it's, it's more like they actually want to kind of at least have a feeling, "Okay. So what are the people that are coming to my home and why they are coming? Yeah. How long are they staying? What are they doing? What is their work? What is their work?" And, and this is already, you know, exploring the, the, the, the, the, the vast, the vast diversity of the world, because it's—this is what I was doing when I was a teenager. And I met those travelers, met those people from foreign countries and I had a blast just by sitting down with them for one hour. For one hour and it's like, "Wow." Yeah. So you came from far away and it, it must be, you know, so expensive and it's so hard, you know, getting here and then staying here, but yet you did it. Yeah. You, you, you made the conscious decision not to stay in your country, not to remain in your safety bubble for your whole life, but you did the trip and you, you exposed yourself to something new and you want to probably change yourself and find yourself. Yeah. That, that's, that's part of it. And then hopefully it will be, you know, beneficial, beneficial for everyone. And you will not, uh, double down in your, you know, traditional or conservative vision of the world that like, "Oh yeah, my country is the best because blah, blah, blah." I hope it's not the case. And, and, um, yeah, maybe we will need to find a way to, like, educate, you know, in, in a better way or to share that, that, that, that, that, that there is so much more than just staying in your narrow mind that's, you

Ben 1:23:43
Yeah.

Piotrek 1:23:43
Know?

Ben 1:23:44
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like when you start, uh, I think there's the experience where you're like, "Man, everything is so different," like when you first traveled to, like, a third world country from a first world, right? Everything's so different. Everything is different. But then, like, you stay for, like, three months or six months and then you get to the phase where, like, everything is the same. People have the same routines. They go to work, they poo, they eat, they do everything.

Piotrek 1:24:07
Right.

Ben 1:24:08
They don't eat the

Piotrek 1:24:08
Poo,

Ben 1:24:08
Poo—this in some countries, but not generally. Okay. But, uh, yeah. So, but, uh, yeah, you, you then go through this phase of everything's the same. And then after that, maybe at the year phase, then you start to realize, okay, these things are the same, which is, like, the human experience

Piotrek 1:24:28
Human

Ben 1:24:28
Or the human position.

Piotrek 1:24:29
Condition. The

Ben 1:24:30
And then it's the different approaches to it. And you start to, like, have a respect for the differences. You can start finding the strengths and weaknesses. And I think, like, if you're just doing a short little trip, you're just finding, like, what is attractive or repulsive to your own intuitions.

Piotrek 1:24:45
And

Ben 1:24:46
Right. Yeah. You're not breaking anything. And you're not breaking anything apart in you or in them or this understanding. And I think, like, that then goes to the dehumanization versus humanization,

Piotrek 1:24:55
Which is

Ben 1:24:55
If you're just, like, personifying or, like, yeah, it's just like the firmament experience rather than reality experience. You're then accepting that your initial intuition about this place is true and your initial experience. Uh, but then the tourist experience in Canggu is so different from the experience even as a tourist in Ubud or in Munduk.

Piotrek 1:25:13
Yeah.

Ben 1:25:14
And these are different experiences, uh, or, you know, you have the more localized experience. So I think, like, my, my actual upcoming project, which I forgot the name of. So I'll look

Piotrek 1:25:24
Then.

Ben 1:25:25
It up and—so, it looks like I actually said it correctly. Um, is, uh, yeah, so my upcoming project, uh, actually, so, works to resolve this, which is that it hopes to offer the ability to humanize people across all different cultures. Because one of the issues that I faced, um, recently, uh, was one of my, uh, good friends, uh, from India was dehumanizing, uh, Muslims because, obviously, there's contentions in that culture.

Piotrek 1:25:57
You know,

Ben 1:25:57
But then I've lived in Malaysia and Indonesia, and the

Piotrek 1:26:00
Muslims

Ben 1:26:00
Fine. Like, you know, but in any culture, you have radicals. Like, how

Piotrek 1:26:05
Are

Ben 1:26:05
Am I as an Australian gonna talk about the radicalization of Muslims blowing up the Bali club when an Australian went and, you know, massacred Muslims in New Zealand? Right? This radicalization, which to the radical—they were dehumanized, and they didn't feel part of the changing culture. They weren't invited in somehow. They had concerns, and they weren't addressed, and they were suppressed. For the Muslim, it's gonna be some concerns. For the radical Australian or the anti-Muslim, right, it's gonna be different concerns.

Piotrek 1:26:32
So,

Ben 1:26:32
So, but what is unique, especially in Indonesia, is, like, regardless of where you go, there is, like, this embracing of diversity. Because they have thousands of islands with different cultures. Um, thousands, I'm not sure, it could be hundreds or thousands.

Piotrek 1:26:47
Yeah.

Ben 1:26:48
But, there's at least, like, 20 main islands, right? And they have different cultures, and it's mandated, like, you must respect that diversity. And they found, like, a way. And, you know, I related that story about the Muslim working at the Buddhist temple. So, when we have, like, that experience, then it really opens a world up to, like, an Indian who is only, you know, being propagandized by their own radicalization of the government, prepping them for some wars.

Piotrek 1:27:13
Mm-hmm,

Ben 1:27:14
And, or even, like, you know, for America, there's, like, the propaganda prepping them, you know, for their relationships to Russia or Russia,

Piotrek 1:27:20
Yeah.

Ben 1:27:20
You know, propagandizing, propagandizing, right? There's

Piotrek 1:27:24
This issue.

Ben 1:27:25
It's all this, like, this inherent dehumanization or this also delegation to malevolent authorities.

Piotrek 1:27:30
There's

Ben 1:27:31
A great documentary about Stanley Milgram, and it goes into his experiments and his career-long concern over the proclivity of an American population's ability to be exploited by malevolent authority. And this is something that, like, we need to awaken up for this ability. And it's also something that is corrupted in even religions, is delegations to malevolent authorities, from the poorest religions to the richest religions. And this issue of dehumanization, I think, is, like, the most pressing one. And it's something easily resolved by discovering that no matter who they are in the world, whether they're a jihadist or whether or not they're a Hare Krishna, is that they're going to have this core human part or element to them. And if we can see that element and they can see it in each other, they'll start to really see each other as—even, like, for soldiers, like, after the Geneva Convention.

Piotrek 1:28:28
Yeah.

Ben 1:28:28
Even soldiers have to treat each other with dignity and respect. They understand they're fighting warriors who demand respect. And they're not just militants killing zombies. Right?

Piotrek 1:28:38
Yes.

Ben 1:28:38
And if we can offer that, then we can offer, like, a progress towards a better, better world.

Piotrek 1:28:45
Yeah,

Definitely. Because it's the humanization, like, the remembering that you are dealing with humans, is, uh, is a key component of, of anything you do, and I think it speaks to, to what I was trying to, um, to think about traveling and then, you know, being exposed and then, uh, not, um, forgetting, yeah, that, that you are always in interaction with other human beings who, who may have, like, completely different philosophy and the way of life, but on the, on, on, on this one level we are the same, yeah, and, and, and this level we should never forget about it because the moment we start to do this, the moment we start using nicknames or, or we think they are nicknames, yeah, but they are actually just slurs and, and, and some other dehumanization tools to, to, to put them far away or far enough to then, you know, call them enemies and then, you know, justify killing them and justify everything else that is happening in the world, um, is just, it's just wrong. Yeah, so, um, can we, um, cover, uh, the, the, um, the element of, of your projects and, and how, how it shifted from Bevry, yeah, because I remember that was a very important element, that was a very important, like, umbrella of projects that, that you were doing, uh, in our last episode. So, um, so, um, is that still alive? Yes. Is Bevry still alive and how it

Pausing Bevry to Focus on Financial Foundations

Ben 1:30:24
Yeah.

Piotrek 1:30:24
Evolved?

Ben 1:30:25
So, um, so, I made the decision, uh, a few years ago, um, I believe at the start of last year to put Bevry, uh, in its entirety on hold.

Piotrek 1:30:34
Uh,

Ben 1:30:34
And,

Piotrek 1:30:34
And,

Ben 1:30:35
And, and that was so I could focus on financial stability, uh, because otherwise I'd have this ambitious project, I'll work on it six months, I'll run out of money, and then it goes on pause.

Piotrek 1:30:43
Then

Ben 1:30:43
Mm-hmm. And do

Piotrek 1:30:44
I have to

Ben 1:30:45
Consulting again or do something else, and then, like, any technological project, or any project, really, because we use technology

Piotrek 1:30:52
Technology.

Ben 1:30:52
For so much, has a limited lifespan, they're not always going to be relevant, and in the marketplace, you have competition, especially from monopolies, if you're dealing with technology.

Piotrek 1:31:03
Yeah.

Ben 1:31:03
So, you have to really know, like, well, what is—what you're going to contribute is going to out-compete the monopolies, because the monopolies play the long-term game, like Apple. They're playing a game for, like, 30 years in the

Piotrek 1:31:14
Are,

Ben 1:31:14
Future, and they

Piotrek 1:31:14
And they have a monopoly

Ben 1:31:15
That will never go away, because the governments. Like, even when it comes to anti-monopoly regulation, it's regulation, then, to make sure Apple is still relevant.

Piotrek 1:31:26
Yeah.

Ben 1:31:26
Right? If they weren't regulated, then people, consumers will get sick and tired, and they will go to a competitor. Right? But because now they're regulated, and they have to adapt, then consumers then end up happy. Right? So, you do have this situation where, like, you just have to accept that at some point, like, every WWDC that Apple does, the Worldwide Developer Conference, they're eliminating another business.

Piotrek 1:31:50
Number one on the agenda. We killed this and that. Yeah, this

Ben 1:31:54
Now

Piotrek 1:31:54
Year.

Ben 1:31:54
It's the native passwords app. Right?

Piotrek 1:31:56
Year.

Ben 1:31:56
Last

Piotrek 1:31:56
It's a

Ben 1:31:57
Journaling app.

Piotrek 1:31:58
Right?

Ben 1:31:59
So, last year, goodbye Day One. Right? Or your other journaling app. This year, it's going to be password management. Like, these are good things for the average thing, but it's terrible for competition.

Piotrek 1:32:08
Yeah. Especially

Ben 1:32:08
Like,

Piotrek 1:32:08
From

Ben 1:32:09
In the tech landscape, unless you want to move to Silicon Valley, like Elon Musk did, then your ability to compete with the monopolies, or even to integrate with monopolies, like the power structures that be, are not there. So, you have to find ways to either do that, or just reject it, and then find ways where you can be

Piotrek 1:32:30
Indie

Ben 1:32:30
Impactful

Piotrek 1:32:30
Companies.

Ben 1:32:30
In other ways. So, then for me, I focused on things that I knew would be sustainable that I can actually focus on and build practices around that. So, now I'm, with my open source software, I'm now earning enough passive income that I can continue to work and improve those, but also to branch out and apply my learnings and my passion and the things I care about in other areas. And, fortunately, as bizarre as it is for me as a highly disagreeable person, you know, people believe in it and they wish to support me. And, to me, you know, I'm so, like—it's unbeknownst to me how people delegate to authorities or to celebrities and things like that. And then, somehow, I've become, like, a tiny, tiny, minuscule little celebrity in this tiny corner of the internet. And, it's bizarre to me, but then, like, I can still, still help and, and transform things. So, like, I, now it's good. Like, I don't earn anywhere near enough as, as—I don't even earn Australian minimum wage.

Piotrek 1:33:36
By

Ben 1:33:36
All compared to, like, Indonesia, man, I'm doing good,

Piotrek 1:33:40
Comparison,

Ben 1:33:40
Right?

Piotrek 1:33:40
Right?

Ben 1:33:40
So,

Piotrek 1:33:40
Yeah. So,

Ben 1:33:42
And that's the thing. I don't care about Australian culture, like,

Piotrek 1:33:45
Like,

Ben 1:33:45
Or Australia as it is. Like, I, like, the Commonwealth. Like, these are, like, solved problems that have, like, their issues, and no one cares to learn from me because I don't represent wealth, right? When, if I can roll things out to areas where people will listen, uh, then I can actually have an impact. And maybe then people will listen to me from countries where, where they—currently they think I'm a loser. Maybe then, you know, people will be like, "Oh, yeah, we don't have to play, like, the rat race game and buy

Piotrek 1:34:11
A boat. Instead

Ben 1:34:13
We can, you know, live

Piotrek 1:34:14
Hashtag

Ben 1:34:14
Life a

Piotrek 1:34:15
Boat.

Ben 1:34:15
Loser," right? Uh, and I feel like my life is, like, one worth living. Like, I'm happy, I have, like, a good relationship, um, yeah, and I have, like, a meaningful life. Like, I never have to, like, worry—I, I, I mean, to go back to, like, for how far I came. Like, since I was eight years old, I used to rip out my hair compulsively.

Piotrek 1:34:35
Like,

Ben 1:34:35
Like, I

Piotrek 1:34:35
I

Ben 1:34:35
Had,

Piotrek 1:34:36
Had,

Ben 1:34:36
Like, anxiety on, like, so much, like, social anxiety and existential anxiety. And I would rip my hair out of, like, self-hatred of how much of a failure I am. Right. And, like, I haven't done that since, like, 2020, uh, or so. And, like, now it's, like, a thing in the past.

Piotrek 1:34:55
Um,

Ben 1:34:56
And, like, I did, like, a blog post and things about this. But, like, from where I've come to, like, where I am now. And it's, like, yeah, it's, it's come, like, leaps and bounds. In terms of, like, you know, how, how, how good things are.

Piotrek 1:35:09
Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm happy for you that this is definitely the, the improvement, yeah, and that you managed to, to overcome it and to find a, the solution. Because, um, yeah, it's, it's something that is always present, yeah? Wherever you go, whatever you do, you know, life, um, the health is, is very integral. And then, it's, uh, what you said earlier, um, that, like, eating healthy, yeah? It, it, is the, the investment for the future. That you will not need so many, many, many demands. And, and just, you will be feeling much, much better. Um, so, um, do you, uh, think, uh, about,

Ben 1:35:48
Oh, sorry, one thing is for the Bevry—even though the philosophy group and the podcast and everything is on pause, I've just been, like, finding projects where I can have an impact. And I

Piotrek 1:35:57
Yeah.

Ben 1:35:57
Focus on projects around finances where I can have an impact. And then once it's time and it's ready, then I'll start unlocking other projects that are meaningful. But it's knowing, like, my limitations, really.

Piotrek 1:36:06
Yeah.

Ben 1:36:07
And really honing in on, onto what can have the impact now, but also always focusing on that long-term game.

How Ben Picks Projects & Deals With Inspiration

Piotrek 1:36:12
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, uh, um, finding the projects that, uh, require some solution. Do you have some matrix to, you know, apply and, like, "Oh, I see that there is an opportunity to, to contribute some open source project"?

Ben 1:36:29
Ah, one of the things—I, I, I mean, maybe, I think, like, I do all the general things that

Piotrek 1:36:34
Do.

Ben 1:36:34
People. But one of the big things for me is, like, I'm a highly creative mind.

Piotrek 1:36:40
Mm-hmm. And, like,

Ben 1:36:42
I can be very inspired, especially, right?

Piotrek 1:36:46
Okay.

Ben 1:36:46
Because I would have, like, a problem. Like, my subconscious would be, like, dwelling on something. Like, maybe every three months. Like, I found something and it's, like, about the reality. Like, it's, it's, it's a leak or a break in my firmament.

Piotrek 1:36:57
Like,

Ben 1:36:57
Like,

Piotrek 1:36:58
True.

Ben 1:36:58
The Truman Show—Truman discovering, like, one of the stars. There's a camera, right?

Piotrek 1:37:01
Yeah.

Ben 1:37:02
Like, I have these little breaks in my firmament, or, like, a glitch in the matrix.

Piotrek 1:37:05
Mm-hmm.

Ben 1:37:06
And, like, I'll notice this in my subconscious and I'll think about it and I'll think about it. And then it swells up in me. And then, like, maybe one week every three months or so, I, like, take off and I really think about it. I branch out and read more philosophy, things like that. Or

Piotrek 1:37:18
Documentary.

Ben 1:37:18
And then I solve it and I integrate it and I move on in, in my life. So, like, but, which is a good practice. Like, you know, versus, like, not doing anything about it and then, like,

Piotrek 1:37:31
Mm-hmm.

Ben 1:37:31
Killing your family. Like, you know, a Dolce Vita. Okay. You know, these other things where you don't, don't listen to that, right?

Piotrek 1:37:38
Mm-hmm.

Ben 1:37:39
Whereas, but then when it comes to work, one of the things is, like, if I am inspired, I'll focus on it, like, you know, document everything. But then, like, I'll just leave it on the back burner. Like, there is films I want to make. There is, like,

Piotrek 1:37:56
All

Ben 1:37:56
I

Piotrek 1:37:56
Sorts.

Ben 1:37:56
Have,

Piotrek 1:37:56
These

Ben 1:37:57
Like, fleshed out ideas. But, like, say for a film, you need, like, cameras, they're expensive, like, I need, like, a drone shot. Like, I have, like, a whole screenplay done for, like, a film.

Piotrek 1:38:07
Okay.

Ben 1:38:07
But, like, I also need to develop the skills,

Piotrek 1:38:10
Yeah.

Ben 1:38:10
Right? But I don't have the skills. So, then, like, I can, you know, I'm happy to, like, put that aside and develop it. And then when the timing is right in my life, then I can work on it.

Piotrek 1:38:20
Right now,

Ben 1:38:21
The timing is right for certain projects.

Piotrek 1:38:23
Yeah. But I can

Ben 1:38:24
And that's

Piotrek 1:38:24
Use

Ben 1:38:24
Why

Piotrek 1:38:24
Them.

Ben 1:38:24
I can use this inspiration for future ones. Maybe one day, it—maybe I can get them from a tangential means, right? Like maybe my work will unlock someone else to do it or inspire someone else to do it, or maybe it shouldn't be done because it was, it wasn't a good idea. But by just, like, documenting the ideas and then, like, really thinking about how it fits into my long-term trajectory and if it will put things off in my long-term trajectory, because before I could be inspired about a project, but then it means my other project gets delayed by three months if I work on this.

Piotrek 1:38:56
Nothing

Ben 1:38:56
Is ever finished, right?

Piotrek 1:38:57
Yeah.

Ben 1:38:59
You work on a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more, right? And that's, like, for life. Like, these little decisions we make, like, do we go to Bali or do we go to Malaysia, right? These are going to be decisions that shape our life. These are tiny little decisions, but it could be who, where we find love. It could be whether we have a motorbike accident. It could be we could get robbed. It could

Piotrek 1:39:19
Be all

Ben 1:39:19
Sorts of things. And these, like, tiny little things that happen, these serendipitous things carve out our life from the array of opportunities into, like, a certain beautiful tree.

Piotrek 1:39:29
Yeah.

So well said. I'm curious, in terms of the open source projects that you accomplished and that they are being your source of income. Like, do you consider them that they are finished and then, you know, because of that people are sponsoring you and then, then you can sell them on different platforms or, you know, how is this business model working for you and then allowing you this much freedom that you have to, you know, travel Indonesia? Yeah.

Open‑Source Income Models & Coda Packs

Ben 1:40:03
So there's different return on investments. One way, which I do not recommend, is spend 10 years doing open source JavaScript packages or libraries, give them away for free, enterprises use it and don't really pay anything unless they pay a subscription to Tidelift. And in which case now they finally give, like, $50 a month US per package. So I think for me, it's like six packages entirely. So 300 US a month, which is five—

Piotrek 1:40:27
Yeah.

Ben 1:40:28
Australian. So that way, terrible investment, 10 years of my life, 500 USD a month, only eventually in, like, the last year or two. Right. Bad investment. And you're going to get, like, teenagers who have an abundance amount of time and without any social skills or social life, out-compete you by, like, reimplementing your packages. Right. So don't do that. And you're going to get a lot of people who are going to get, like, a lot of people who are going to get you into that. And you're going to get, like, teenagers who have an amount of time and without any social skills or social life, out-compete you by, like, reimplementing your packages. Right. So don't do that one. Waste of time. Right. Instead, just do the Australian way where you get a job in a career.

Piotrek 1:40:58
Get involved.

Ben 1:40:58
But—even if you buy a boat.

Piotrek 1:41:01
Right.

Ben 1:41:01
Right. It's

Piotrek 1:41:01
It's

Ben 1:41:01
A

Piotrek 1:41:01
A

Ben 1:41:01
Better

Piotrek 1:41:01
Better

Ben 1:41:02
Life. Right. But

Piotrek 1:41:03
Life.

Ben 1:41:04
Or just work two years and then retire in Asia. Right. And never work again. And then do it for the humanities and study philosophy, become a philosopher king. Right. But then—or the other model is, like, right now, there's Coda Packs, which was two weeks' investment, which I live-streamed and now release some open source. And then that's bringing in also, like, 500 Australian a month, something like that. So two

Piotrek 1:41:28
Weeks

Ben 1:41:28
Investment and over a year now, it's 500 USD a month.

Piotrek 1:41:33
And

Ben 1:41:33
No, sorry.

Piotrek 1:41:33
That's

Ben 1:41:34
300.

Piotrek 1:41:34
Stable.

Ben 1:41:35
Yeah. I mean, it goes up every month

Piotrek 1:41:37
Oh,

Ben 1:41:37
As more people like Coda as a platform. It's like Notion. And I'm sure Notion has their own marketplace where you can write plugins and sell things. So,

Piotrek 1:41:45
Coda

Ben 1:41:45
You know, that's utilizing my skills there. And the other one is just direct sponsorships. People believe in Ben or

Piotrek 1:41:51
Believe in my

Ben 1:41:51
Work and then they sponsor me directly. And then I coded some things that took, like, six months or so to develop. Them Shoutouts, which is currently broken, which I need to fix. But it's also about the long-term plan and all the rest. And people,

Piotrek 1:42:02
You know,

Ben 1:42:03
Generally understand that. Right.

Piotrek 1:42:04
So this is your celebrity status

Ben 1:42:06
Yeah.

Piotrek 1:42:06
Here in this corner.

Ben 1:42:08
So. So, yeah, maybe, like, 150 a month. It used to be more. One of the sponsors, a longtime sponsor, has dropped out. He's having financial difficulties. Thank

Piotrek 1:42:17
Thank

Ben 1:42:17
You

Piotrek 1:42:17
You.

Ben 1:42:17
So much for your contribution.

Piotrek 1:42:20
Yeah.

Ben 1:42:21
Right. I mean, and that's understandable. So the sponsorships—they go up and down, whatever. And, you know, it's also based on how well you play the celebrity game. And I don't do that at all well. And, but the other stuff, yeah, it works really well. But it's—and the surprising thing about the Coda Packs is I release them all open source. And

Piotrek 1:42:40
People

Ben 1:42:40
Still just buy them from the marketplace rather than pirate them. And so that was, like, really surprising because you're always told, like, "Oh, don't release the software open source." But I think

Piotrek 1:42:48
It

Ben 1:42:49
Depends, like, well, what type of software it is, because my packages, yeah, no one will pay for it. And it's just, like, a bloody ocean economics. But the Coda Packs works fine. So I found, like, a little niche there, but now I have, like, the freedom to explore and try different things. And, yeah,

Piotrek 1:43:06
Yeah.

Ben 1:43:06
So. So, I mean, like, again, it's not much, but, I mean, like, this is, like, a sustained, like, it's,

Piotrek 1:43:11
Yeah.

Ben 1:43:11
Even in Australia, like, it's, you know, below minimum wage, but I'm very good at, like, living on no

Piotrek 1:43:17
Yeah, yeah,

Ben 1:43:18
Money.

Piotrek 1:43:18
Yeah, yeah.

Ben 1:43:18
And.

Piotrek 1:43:19
For

Ben 1:43:20
Some money, right? Like, no money—it's a lot of money to, to a lot of people in the world,

Piotrek 1:43:24
Yeah.

Ben 1:43:24
Right? Probably to the majority of the world's population

Piotrek 1:43:26
Money.

Ben 1:43:26
Is a lot

Piotrek 1:43:27
Yeah,

Ben 1:43:27
Of

Piotrek 1:43:27
Yeah.

Ben 1:43:28
Right? But then, yeah, I can take it. And I, I think that's the thing, which is, like, those—the, the way I've earned money, I can roll that out to anybody. Like, give me a few years and I could teach them.

Piotrek 1:43:38
Yeah. Right?

Ben 1:43:39
So, this is something that we can really help. And even, like, if I'm not teaching them how to do that, I can teach them how to earn money in different ways. If they want to set up a restaurant, I can help them.

Piotrek 1:43:48
I

Ben 1:43:49
Things

Piotrek 1:43:49
Think

Ben 1:43:49
Like that. So, this is, like, the power where, like, I've unlocked, like, a way of doing life. Where, like, I don't have to, like, worry. But it's more like, also, if you have a strong philosophy, then your goal is to know that you can overcome when traumas happen. Right? It's not to,

Piotrek 1:44:06
Like,

Ben 1:44:06
Be trauma-free. You do want to, like, reduce the traumas that happen in your life. You want to be grounded in a great, firm grasp of reality, not just your firmament. So, there should be less traumas. But when a trauma does happen, you will have the confidence or the faith.

Piotrek 1:44:20
Yeah. To

Ben 1:44:21
Believe you can overcome.

Piotrek 1:44:22
Believe.

Ben 1:44:22
And

Piotrek 1:44:22
Yeah. And

Ben 1:44:23
This is, like, something which, like, if people don't have faith, and then life is terrifying and it's scary and the world gets smaller and smaller. But

Piotrek 1:44:33
If you

Ben 1:44:33
Can work on yourself and build on yourself and you can have faith that you can overcome, this is, like, the greatest gift. And that's, like, what salvation really is.

Piotrek 1:44:41
It's

Ben 1:44:42
Salvation that you can overcome.

Piotrek 1:44:44
Yeah.

Thank you for those words.

Can Indonesians Replicate Ben’s Model?

Piotrek 1:44:44–1:45:49 (paraphrase with original word order preserved)
Just connecting the dots from what you said earlier, because we are slowly going to the end of the conversation. Do you think—I'll have half your audience while we're wrapping up now. For the one person who remained, I'm curious. Do you think, like, you know, foreseeing the future, thanks to your projects that you want to do in Indonesia and, like, help to educate the people here, help them, you know, give them the tools. What you are doing, yeah? With just creating those Coda Packs or some other open source contributions that can, you know, bring you money as a developer. Would that be also possible for, like, Indonesians, for Indonesian engineers who aspire to be in, like, they would love to have, you know, $300 every year, every month, yeah, for what they are doing?

Ben 1:45:49
Yeah. I mean, obviously with technology, like, an Indian programmer earns less because, even though there's the same job, because of the deficit in other technological awareness, right?

Piotrek 1:46:03
So, someone who's grown

Ben 1:46:04
Up around computers, they're going to have an easier time, but they're also going to know more, right? Like, the amount of people who use a computer, like, let's say, use a motorbike and they don't know what an engine is or a carburetor.

Piotrek 1:46:13
Yeah.

Ben 1:46:14
These other type of maintenance or these foundational principles, like, how do the cell towers work to create our internet connection? These foundational things you learn during a degree versus, like, a boot camp, right? So, there are going to be differences there. But the main thing is, like, whether or not it makes sense for them to adopt programming. If it makes sense and they can find, like—they jive

Piotrek 1:46:33
It's

Ben 1:46:33
With it, then

Piotrek 1:46:34
Fine.

Ben 1:46:34
But it's also, like, if you have a philosophy or, like, a—it's the same thing for, like, a religion. A religion doesn't, like, provide, like, one prescription. It provides, like, a general prescription

Piotrek 1:46:45
For

Ben 1:46:45
And then it allows, like, the diversity of the human experience to, like, be empowered by that. So, it's the same thing. Like, if I'm, like, "Okay, the entire world needs to become Coda Pack developers," right? Like,

Piotrek 1:46:57
It's—maybe not.

Ben 1:46:59
Instead, if I can roll out my skills and use them to help others, then you're building, like, a village rather than just, like, in one specific industry. And that's, like, where things get a lot better. So, like, I can use these skills to help others to then impact their economy a lot better locally. It's just, like, greater and greater scale. It's, like, if we go back four years ago, I'm talking about, like, giving mobile phones to, like, teenagers so they have a career in being a Grab driver.

Piotrek 1:47:27
Yeah. So,

Ben 1:47:28
They can do the Google Maps reviews or the Instagram reviews for their touring business or their farm where they can offer their fruit directly to consumers.

Piotrek 1:47:36
Yeah. Whatever

Ben 1:47:36
It is,

Piotrek 1:47:37
It

Ben 1:47:37
Right? So, these are, like, small little impacts, but then, you know, can scale them up where, like, okay. Like, one of the issues in, like, Sumba is the kids don't understand why they should be educated, right? They can be, like, "Oh, I can catch fish. Why, like, I can just go fishing," right? "And I can do that forever,"

Piotrek 1:47:54
Is. Yeah.

Ben 1:47:54
Right? But

Piotrek 1:47:55
Whatever

Ben 1:47:55
Then—what happens is you'll be like the Japanese like 200 years ago, where you have an insulated culture that is thriving, but then Americans rock up in these huge big ships.

Piotrek 1:48:05
Yeah.

Ben 1:48:05
And then suddenly everything is different.

Piotrek 1:48:08
Yeah,

Ben 1:48:08
Right?

Piotrek 1:48:08
Yeah.

Ben 1:48:08
So, or you can be like the indigenous people of one of the Indian Ocean islands where you're still in the wooden age, right? And you're having Christian missionaries go there to try and evangelize and then they get stabbed to death because this culture does not want to integrate. Um, and that's fine. Like that's also respecting their humanity and their divinity in themselves is knowing that they wanted to protect their sovereignty.

Piotrek 1:48:34
Mm hmm.

Ben 1:48:35
Um, so yeah, it's about kind of finding out where, where it can be impactful. So it's going to be a question whether or not anyone can be educated to be a programmer, but that's, like, not what my life is. My life isn't programming. My life is about, like, the wealth of, like, contribution and, um, yeah. More specifically, like, the philosophy that can enable anyone to earn an income and

Piotrek 1:48:57
Mm

Ben 1:48:57
Overcome.

Closing Reflections & Thanks

Piotrek 1:48:58
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful and I cross my fingers for you to, you know, make it happen. And I'm curious to see the development of the project and everything that you are going to do here in Asia. Uh, maybe outside of Bali because Bali is already quite well developed. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm really glad that we had this chance to, uh, have our second episode and to cover so many different topics. Uh, so thank you very much Ben.

Ben 1:49:31
Thank you, Piotrek, for having me.

Piotrek 1:49:33
Yeah, until next time. Bye-bye.